Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

[sahsah]

Yes, there are that many flavors containing diacetyl...and there are just as many that contain acetyl proprionyl & acetoin (other "butter" flavors), especially since diacetyl has been limited or removed from many 'vaping flavors'. Acetyl proprionyl has been shown to be just as dangerous as diacetyl. Acetoin is bad news, too (especially when combined with certain chemicals).

Most don't seem to realize that it takes several hundred individual chemicals to create just one 'simple' flavor (like strawberry). Read more about 'flavor chemistry' here (a great overview, including info on 'natural flavors'): Food Labs Use An Average of 2000 Chemicals To Create 500 'Natural Flavors' You Would Never Suspect Are Artificial

When we make a juice involving 4-5 flavors, we're actually chemists mixing THOUSANDS of (unknown mostly) chemicals. For example, when we mix coffee + chocolate + cream + other + vg + pg + nic...this is not the mere handful chemicals most imagine (vs the thousands found in burning tobacco plus the hundreds possible additives). An e-juice containing several compound flavors is also THOUSANDS of chemicals (plus all the chemicals that are formed by the chemical interactions & the heat).

Of course, every natural plant & food also contains several hundred chemicals (even thousands), but there's a major difference between 'white chemical powder isolates & synthetics' and those found in natural foods where the levels, synergy & interactions have proven to be safe for ingestion throughout time.

When health is a concern, we suggest doing everything possible to lessen the level of chemicals. Knowledge is the key Learn the tips n' tricks to keep the 'flavors' to a minimum:

--use VG diluted with distilled water & saline solution rather than PG (or minimize the PG). PG is more dehydrating and has a musty flavor that can only be covered by using more chemicals. .9% sterile saline solution seriously ENHANCES flavors (which equals less chemicals needed), and it's very safe, hydrating & soothing to vape. Some say distilled water also enhances flavor a bit.

--minimize or eliminate "additives" that are known to diminish flavor in a juice -- those are EM, vinegar, lemon juice/citric acid, and sucralose. We've been DIYing for almost a year, and have only used sucralose once or twice; we've used EM very sparingly. The one time we used more than a few drops of sucralose, 3-4 days later the juice was 'dead' (it really had lost 30-50% of it's flavor. Look at recipes - anytime one sees 1-3% sweetener or EM, invariably one sees high flavor percentages. One of us has a major sweet tooth - yet we've never needed added sweetener.

--Vape Wizard, Magic Mask (FA) and Smooth (TFA) are chemical blends designed to 'take off rough edges' and smooth/enhance vapor. They do this not by changing or adding flavor/chemicals, but by a designer chemical cocktail that actually alters the actions of our taste buds/receptors temporarily. Like diacetyl, these chemicals are "approved as safe" for eating. Who knows what they'll alter 'temporarily' when mainlined into our bloodstream via inhalation.

'Find the various tips/suggestions for using saline solution, as well as evidence of the additives diminishing flavor in the following thread, starting around Post #365 for the saline: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-10.html There are mentions of the saline and additives killing flavor throughout the thread.

Back to diacetyl/similar; from here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document

For Diacetyl, a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends in the draft document a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period.

For 2,3-pentanedione [acetyl proprionyl], a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 9.3 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. The REL for 2,3-pentanedione in the draft document is based upon the lowest level at which the substance reliably can be detected using the existing analytical method, and should not be misconstrued to imply that 2,3-pentanedione is of lower toxicity than diacetyl. Further, NIOSH recommends a STEL of 31 ppb to limit peak exposures for 2,3-pentanedione on the same basis of analytic method limitation.
​

How much is 5 - 25 parts per billion? It's 0000005% - 0000025%

We have been almost entirely unable to find the percentage of the diacetyl/like chemicals contained in typical flavorings (GRRRRR) - but we did find a few from Baker Flavors in Russia http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbaker-flavors.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F03%2Fe-cigarettes.html (which is Vaping Zone's Gourmet Line). The Tiramisu contains the most at .6% diacetyl of the ones they tested back in 2010...and it's commonly mixed at 2%. Let's make 100ml :: praying our math is correct::: ...

100ml @ 2% flavoring = 2ml of Tiramisu flavoring in 100ml of liquid. 2 mls of Tiramisu flavoring contains .6% diacetyl (.6% x 2ml = .012mls of diacetyl)....so there's .012 ml of diacetyl in that 100mls of juice.

What's the percentage of diacetyl in that 100mls of juice? .00012%

Using this "ppb calculator" Parts Per Billion Conversion Chart (Fractions and Percent Converter, Percentages And Parts), we find one must enter 1200 ppb to equal .00012%

So, vaping that particular flavoring at 2% means we'd be vaping 1200 parts per billion, when the 'safe zone' for short term exposure/inhalation is 25 parts per billion.

Yes, we DO have reason to avoid these chemicals. Even if they're 50 or 75% less than the example, we'd still be in the 300-600 ppb zone. Of course, the raspberry flavor starts at .00009% diacetyl, and that works out to WAY less than 1ppb (around .012 ppb, if I calculated quickly correctly).

'Always glad to see posters concerned about the health aspects of the chemicals we're inhaling!

thank you for taking the time to write and post all of this eloquently communicated and elucidative instruction. I'm sure legions of vapers, my self assuredly included, found your post to be profoundly and indispensably invaluably beneficial. Thanks again and keep vaping (safely) all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls of course) =]

 

[tyjames]

I think it goes without saying this is not something to take lightly or for granted, especially just because you want to vape a certain flavor or Vendors, just because you want to make and sell a certain flavor. It is a potentially huge health hazard and I don't think nearly anyone(general public) knows about it. Vendors need to step up and be proactive and put pressure on their suppliers (flavor companies) because they are the ones who's money will talk.

 

[we2rcool]

thank you for taking the time to write and post all of this eloquently communicated and elucidative instruction. I'm sure legions of vapers, my self assuredly included, found your post to be profoundly and indispensably invaluably beneficial. Thanks again and keep vaping (safely) all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls of course) =]

Thank you - and you're more than welcome! Wethinks if we don't learn enough to regulate ourselves, it won't be long before the vaping community is regulated by, well...not the "vaping community"

Vape Safe!

 

[Tekn0ph1sh]

They are going to regulate vapors regardless of what we do to regulate ourselves. Unfortunately the current plans do not mention anything on what is safe to vape just that anything that could be used as a replacement to tobacco is tobacco.

 

[mikeulon]

We2rcool is a gold mine of info!!! Thank you sir

 

[Exchaner]

I find myself vaping unflavored more and more just to get away from harmful chemicals. Nicotine has a natural flavor of its own. Vaping might even be more addictive than smoking precisely because of the pleasure we get from the flavors we vape. They keep us coming back for more....

 

[HoneyGram57]

I just visited Perfumers Apprentice to place an order and find the following on a lot of flavors I've now removed from my stash, *** Note: This flavor contains 'custard' ingredients: Acetoin.
The following link explains the frequent questions & concerns involving custard notes.

Perfumer's Apprentice

If I do continue to vape flavors I'll buy them from Perfumers Apprentice as they've been the only site to be up from about the content on their product and the possible danger.

 

[Clmarti78]

I went to purchase more flavors from one of my favorite vendors TFA they have gone through all of there flavors and put in the description if they may contain any custard. I hope the other vendors follow suit and let people know what they are putting into there lungs. I have to thank TFA for being so honest about what they have. I have at least 30 oz of flavoring to dump it is sad but better safe than sorry. It sucks but I make for a lot of family and friends and wouldn't want to be responsible for any harm to them.

 

[Cookster]

Don't dump them! They can be used in coffee, tea, water, baking...

 

[Clmarti78]

Don't dump them! They can be used in coffee, tea, water, baking...

Same thing my wife said as I stood at the sink with 8 4oz bottles getting ready to dump. So now they are in the kitchen cabinet and not with my juice supplies.

 

[FStopFive]

Wow. I'm not saying wow to the content of this thread...more the fact that I just sat and read 29 pages of it.

To the people that are talking about throwing away all their vaping products: Seriously? I'm baffled by this. What exactly are you planning on switching to? While I'm not saying that there isn't a need to be concerned with what you're inhaling...don't you think this might be a bit of an over reaction? If you do elect to move away from vaping, I'd encourage you to find a way to donate your vaping supplies and equipment to someone who could use it. Find a veteran who wants to quit smoking analogues and make a gift of it.

I'm left with two thoughts after reading (this entire) thread:

1. I'm glad I only vape DIY liquid. I don't mean to imply that there's anything untrustworthy about any of the reputable online vendors out there...but there is something that comes from the piece of mind in knowing exactly what went in to whatever flavor you're vaping. Yes, I may not know all the sub-components that make up said flavoring...but I know the vendor I purchase my flavoring from (TFA) has an excellent track record of full disclosure.

2. Nothing in life is safe. I don't mean for that to sound as cynical as it probably does, but it's true. At any moment there are any number of things that could kill you, from crossing the street to simply eating food. I don't want to live forever. I don't want to go out of my way to checkout early (hence my switch to vaping many moons ago), but there is no effing way I'm going to stop doing something I love that's become a borderline obsession because there are some flavors that may contain trace amounts of this, that or the other. Is there a chance that there is something inherently harmful with vaping in general that we don't know about yet? Quite possibly. Does that concern me? No, not really.

There is so much crap in the water we drink, the food we eat, the air we breathe, etc... I honestly just don't get why this is such a major concern for people...

 

[Clmarti78]

I will probably vape for a long while. in one of my post I did mention dumping the flavors tha TFA recently posted as may contain custard. But there are still many flavors out there as of 5/8/2014 deemed as safe to vape. And until they are deemed other wise I will continue using them and still looking for more wonderful flavors that I have yet to try.

 

[we2rcool]

Wow. I'm not saying wow to the content of this thread...more the fact that I just sat and read 29 pages of it.

To the people that are talking about throwing away all their vaping products: Seriously? I'm baffled by this. What exactly are you planning on switching to? While I'm not saying that there isn't a need to be concerned with what you're inhaling...don't you think this might be a bit of an over reaction? If you do elect to move away from vaping, I'd encourage you to find a way to donate your vaping supplies and equipment to someone who could use it. Find a veteran who wants to quit smoking analogues and make a gift of it.

I'm left with two thoughts after reading (this entire) thread:

1. I'm glad I only vape DIY liquid. I don't mean to imply that there's anything untrustworthy about any of the reputable online vendors out there...but there is something that comes from the piece of mind in knowing exactly what went in to whatever flavor you're vaping. Yes, I may not know all the sub-components that make up said flavoring...but I know the vendor I purchase my flavoring from (TFA) has an excellent track record of full disclosure.

2. Nothing in life is safe. I don't mean for that to sound as cynical as it probably does, but it's true. At any moment there are any number of things that could kill you, from crossing the street to simply eating food. I don't want to live forever. I don't want to go out of my way to checkout early (hence my switch to vaping many moons ago), but there is no effing way I'm going to stop doing something I love that's become a borderline obsession because there are some flavors that may contain trace amounts of this, that or the other. Is there a chance that there is something inherently harmful with vaping in general that we don't know about yet? Quite possibly. Does that concern me? No, not really.

There is so much crap in the water we drink, the food we eat, the air we breathe, etc... I honestly just don't get why this is such a major concern for people...

It's BECAUSE there's so many toxins in everything else that we want to avoid adding even more!

Of course, nothing in life is free of risk, and that is exactly why many of us want to control those risks. We have a right to the level of disclosure & information that gives us the basic human right of "freedom of choice" - and that is something we're not getting from the vast majority of flavor vendors (and most vapers don't have much of a clue at all).

Most of us had ONE (maybe two) "flavors" when we smoked analogs. There's no "sacrifice" or "hardship" in making do with gazillions of flavor combinations that can be created with flavorings that are free of chemicals that are known 'inhalation risk'.

From Post #445 here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...l-diacetyl-acetoine-help-12.html#post13071675

Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos test
Preliminary results of over 150 flavours tested showed 69% contained Diacetyl. This includes flavours from some vendors that claim Diacetyl Free. Go to 1:21:30 to listen

Smoke Free Radio Episode 3

Vapers Place - Show Schedule and Replays

Most vapers (particularly newbies) have no IDEA that the flavors may contain chemicals that are known inhalation risks...even in those labeled "diacetyl free".

Threads like this do not prevent anyone from choosing to vape whatever they prefer to choose. But without threads like these, it's rare than anyone has enough information to make an informed choice.

 

[Clmarti78]

Just glad the more experienced vapors arn't defending the claim that there is no harm in vapping. As long as the education we pass along to each other is known as fact and we stick together as the vapping community keeping each other safe with the new knowledge we get day to day. We can learn how to make this a 100% safer and healthier alternative to the cancer sticks we all used to love as much as we do vapping. Thank you to everyone sharing what they have learned in all aspects not only harmful flavors to making us a more educated safer community.

 

[aikanae1]

I think more experienced vapers got bored since right now most are concerned with whether vaping will even be available in the future or not. We may have a choice of cigalikes or cigarettes. DIY is definatley out, making this seem ridiculous.

 

[flowerpots]

These are my meandering thoughts on this subject:

When I first started vaping, over a year ago, I had the mindset that many posters do - why worry about it when you just came from smoking cancer sticks for 10,20,30 or more years laced with thousands of known chemicals, and still continued to smoke anyway? Because regardless of the concern for food flavorings for inhalation purposes, it's way better than smoking. That's a valid point.

But, then you see people with major allergy issues posting here, with stories of chest tightening, swollen throats, and learn that people can have problems with PG, with food colorings, flavorings, with almost anything. For some people, their life depends on knowing what goes into their body, or they risk an anaphylactic shock reaction. These people have a valid need to know exactly what ingredients are in their liquids.

Then, as time goes on, you see/hear of people of who have major/lasting/irreversible consequences from smoking, regardless that they did finally quit and used vaping as a tool to do that. Now, they have to be uber concerned about their health and not worsening or exacerbating already established medical conditions. These people have a valid reason to know exactly what goes into their liquids.

Finally, you have people who may not fall into any of the above categories, but who wish to be as healthy as possible. And who can blame them or fault them this? Isn't this what we all hopefully want to work towards? Even if you don't, those that do are justifiably concerned that some ingredients may be of concern. This a a valid point.

As mentioned earlier, it's about informed decision making. You can't make the best choices for your health while walking in a dark room, bumping into furniture. Until we educate ourselves and are 100% honest with ourselves, we can't make the best decisions for our health, nor should we be doing so for others, if our lack of concern is so strong. This is precisely what the FDA wants to do - it's not for your protection (I can give you thousands of examples of this), it's about money and politics. Without taking a turn off topic with this, I just want to say that being ignorant and yet feeling the need to defend vaping is as wrong as demonizing vaping and not knowing. It's two sides of the same coin. We are headed toward regulation, regardless of whether we police ourselves. But, we won't do ourselves or anyone else a favor (those who will look to vaping in the future to quit smoking) by not being concerned.

YMMV

 

[we2rcool]

I think more experienced vapers got bored since right now most are concerned with whether vaping will even be available in the future or not. We may have a choice of cigalikes or cigarettes. DIY is definatley out, making this seem ridiculous.

Fwiw, there are MANY vapers that are both "experienced" and "DIYers" and DIY is definitely not "out" for us/them - because we have a lifetime supply of nic safely stashed.

Everything anyone 'needs' to DIY forever will either always be available (or can easily be purchased & stashed). We2 are not the slightest bit concerned "with vaping will even be available in the future or not", and neither are many other experienced vapers.

 

[aikanae1]

How much of an industry do you think there will be if there are no new vapers and equip is restricted to BT cigalikes with single use cartridges?

 

[Slots]

I don't agreed that everything will be available.
My state is trying to pass laws against ANY vaping hardware or juices being ordered over the web or by phone and it will be against the law to have it shipped via mail into this state.
It's being classified as DRUG PARAPHERNALIA
My state isn't the only one ..California is another one, and so goes' Ca ..so goes' the rest
We could still buy batteries, but you better have something to put them in.

I'm not going to toss my flavorings with Diacetyl, Acetion and Acetylproprionyl in them.
I can use them in the kitchen in drinks, ice cream, muffins etc.
I will faze them out,... but until they are gone, when I vape juice containing them, it's simple to mouth inhale and exhale through my nose ..no lung use with them.
In your mouth, the saliva carries them to your stomach where they were intended to go, and are properly digested.
I can also limit how often I use them and vape more of the "OK" juices.
Also, I already enjoy my juice without any flavoring in it, and use that as a break from all the sweets etc.
If you have nicotine, you will still be able to buy the PG and VG

I think you need to try to be educated, make common sense decisions, and STOCK UP.
Even if vaping supplies are available, you will pay through the nose for them in the future.

 

[aikanae1]

I think all eliquid and nic is already banned, online or not, in Illinois.