found this little gem on my AOL news popup

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Anima

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It's one of those things that I think evolves over time and you just can't explain it without sounding a bit nutty and extreme.

We finally agree on something.

It's why the point gets lost in arguing over little things like "smoke stinks." You have to absorb a LOT of info before it becomes clear - too much to post in one thread. It's not that people are arguing that people aren't offended by the smell of smoke, it's how that is used to persecute people that is the point and how it's being used against vapers and ST users. It's just so hard to illustrate that point in text.

No one here has done that, though we have been accused of it. So you are saying that if any statement has ever, in the history of the universe been used to denigrate smokers, that it can never, ever, never be stated ever again without meaning the same thing? ANTZ get to control the use of language for the rest of us?

Honestly, if I'm going to start taking extreme offense at anything that sounds vaguely ANTZ-like, no matter how the person who is speaking intends it, then I would just rather not immerse myself in the materials that you all are recommending. I don't like being stuck at the bar next to a paranoid 9/11-truther or a Scientologist, and I'm not about to start reading between the lines of what people say and hearing things that just aren't there. I'll continue to enjoy my vape, but I am not going to turn myself into someone who freaks out when a friend says that smoking is bad for you, or any of a hundred other things that I don't currently find controversial or offensive.
 

sherid

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Here's my position. Over 3 1/2 years ago, I became interested in vaping solely because it sounded so cool and also because it was a way of getting around smoking bans. At the same time or slightly before that, I got involved in discussions about smoking bans after Ohio started enforcing theirs. I hated everything about smoking bans, especially the concept of neighbor turning in neighbor for violations and then the shock of discovering the world of anti-smokers and the denormalization campaign. I grew to despise the movement. I hate them way more today.

When I started posting here, it was a very friendly and helpful community. As it grew, new voices and less helpful people started joining the discussion. Sometimes, it was clear that some were actually anti-smokers posing as vapers trying to stir things up. As more denormalized smoker/vapers joined the discussion, I stopped posting very much. The comfort level went down a number of notches, and a number of former veteran posters left for the same reasons. I pop in now and then and see what's new, but I rarely get involved in any discussions now. I happened to see this thread and was reminded of why I had removed myself from active status here.
 

kristin

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Amina, that is not what I said nor was I suggesting that. I don't understand how you are getting some of these things from what is being said.

It's one thing to just say "I don't like the smell of smoke," but that is not what was said nor was it how it was said:

Come on, aren't smokers known for their love of aerobic activity? Nothing like a smoke break on a long bike ride or a Marlboro in the middle of a 5K. How about post-coital jumping jacks instead of a smoke?

OMG smokers to me smell really dreadful and i am so glad that isn't me anymore.

I consider smelling like an ashtray a condition with social consequences, and I hardly think that the widespread desire for smokers to step outside can be attributed to zealotry. Asking that smokers consider the noses and lungs of those they share a room with is not an attempt to make anyone a pariah. Second-hand smoke is physically bothersome to many people. Again, we can't accuse ANTZ of propagandizing if we are doing it ourselves.

Yes, smoking legislation has gone too far, but I think much of it is a backlash against smokers who believe themselves entitled to blow pungent fumes into the air whenever and wherever they desire without consideration for the people around them.

We weren't saying that those who said these things are ANTZ. What we were saying is that comments like those could very well have been taken off of an ANTZ web site and people should consider that when talking about vaping vs. smoking and how they are giving ANTZ tactics credibility when they continue the denigration of smokers started by the ANTZ. We need to be careful, because they are using the very same underhanded tactics on vapers.

Yes, smoke smells bad to a lot of people. But the whole "filthy, stinky & disgusting" campaign against smokers was created to turn society against them and has no basis in health or science. They will use the same tactic against us "weak-minded, selfish, junkie" nicotine users and smokeless tobacco users.

To illustrate "walking that line, " CASAA campaigns against e-cigarettes being included in indoor use bans, but we are very careful not to show support for indoor bans against smoking and try to remain neutral. Most of us feel it's a personal property rights issue and many of us think the science behind second-hand smoke in public places like bars (now even outdoors) is shaky at best. (We all have different opinions on this, so CASAA has no "official" position on smoking bans. I, for one, think business bans are unwarranted because of SHS, but I do think SHS exposure on a daily basis in a home or car has health consequences for children. Again - my personal belief.) Now ANTZ are using that same junk science to ban e-cigarettes indoors and also the tactic of how even looking at someone who looks like they are smoking is offensive - even without the smell.

Anyhow, so it's not really about expressing your opinion, it's about HOW the opinion is expressed. The above quotes would be pretty offensive to many smokers and the ANTZ would love to see it. To answer your question - yes, the ANTZ get control of the use of that kind of language, because we hope to expose it for what it really is and we want nothing to do with it - it's just ammunition for them to ban all nicotine products except Big Pharma's.
 
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Anima

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Jul 13, 2011
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... What we were saying is that comments like those could very well have been taken off of an ANTZ web site and people should consider that when talking about vaping vs. smoking and how they are giving ANTZ tactics credibility when they continue the denigration of smokers started by the ANTZ. We need to be careful, because they are using the very same underhanded tactics on vapers.

So we must censor ourselves on a forum for nicotine users? Everything must be filtered through the lens of what could be taken out of context and used against us? Perhaps that should be included in the forum rules. I post here with the assumption that everyone is a former or current smoker who currently uses nicotine. Perhaps new members should be informed that they need to be more paranoid. Maybe "stinky sticks" and other expressions could be added to the list of words that can't be used.

Anyhow, so it's not really about expressing your opinion, it's about HOW the opinion is expressed. The above quotes would be pretty offensive to many smokers...

The above quotes were taken completely out of context.
 

Anima

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Sherid was trying to explain the "why" to you of that. We are trying to explain and be patient and being rude like this doesn't add much to the discussion, either.

I assume that a reprimand for Sherid's rudeness will be forthcoming as well.

Look, we're at an impasse. I think that some of you sound paranoid and crazy and no amount of patiently explaining will remedy it. A man was trying to patiently explain to me about all the evidence that the moon landing is a hoax the other day (he pointed me to some very helpful websites), but, alas, he too became convinced that I was just being obtuse. This is heading the same way.
 
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