FDA Game changer? - "Relax ... it's a ___ NJOY!" (NJOY to make a non-cigAlike/advanced system with a tank?)

[Katya]

If anyone can, and would like to step in, I'd be grateful.

The way I see it, it's, in the words of Smokey Joe, a Humpty-Dumpty legislation.

It's Humpty Dumpty legislation:

"`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'"

http://comparativelawblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/humpty-dumpty-and-law.html

You guys can discuss it all you want... It's what they mean that matters. And nobody knows what they mean.

Let's spend our time more productively--writing to our representatives, newspapers, lawmakers--the list is long: CDC, Hamburg, Harkin, McAfee....

 

[Katya]

Or, in the words of Nancy Pelosi,

"We have to pass this bill to see what's in it."

 

[NC_Fog]

Or, in the words of Nancy Pelosi,

"We have to pass this bill to see what's in it."

LOL...And they still don't know whats in it.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

If "commoditized" vaping is what the future holds in store, it doesn't sound too appealing to me (from the ECF info zone link in Kent's post above).

/begin musing

From my point of view, it still gives smokers a better chance to quit than cigAlikes or (perhaps) no vaping at all.

(Nate, I applaud the fact that you quit w/ cigAlikes, but what I hear is that this is rare. That's why I feel that there's no future, especially given the public health "balancing act.")

Even if vaping is "commoditized" - if there are good-quality systems and lots of flavor options, then this will probably create dramatic reductions in the rate of tobacco cigarette smoking. And if the public health effects of tobacco cigarette smoking are even a quarter of what the ANTZ claim they are, this reduction alone will be a very good thing (as compared to only having cigAlikes - which leads nowhere because they will be banned sooner or later).

Once virtually all smokers have been converted to vapers, the American Tobacco Control Governent-Industrial Complex may lack a raison d'etre Perhaps they'll magically transform themselves into the food police (or the weight police). Maybe the hangnail cops. Who knows. Stanton Glantz will probably retire while the Tobacco Control gig is going great, but Prue Talbott may have to find other kinds of "fish" to fry (or bake).

All I can say for sure is that prohibitionists can never be themselves prohibitited, any more than death and taxes.

At some point in the future, a clever teenager may figure out how to derive nicotine from an eggplant and a couple of then-common kitchen products. And by then, 3D printers will be used to build puck mods - or the equivalent - thus eliminating the BT/BV monopoly.

That might be long after I'm dead. But at least vaping may be saved in the meantime by "commoditization," and all those smokers will get a better chance to quit.

I would've vastly preferred self-regulation. But as the song goes ... "you can't always get what you want ..."

/musing

 

[Sirius]

Hmmm . . . Njoy (BT) offering truly better/2nd generation products . . . And NOW, of all times . . .


Very intriguing indeed!

Eleanor -- You took the words right out of my ... fingers! NJOY is looking suspiciously like the canary that managed to eat a cat.

 

[Katya]

But as the song goes ... "you can't always get what you want ..."

/musing

Dr. Cuddy: Oh, I looked into that philosopher you quoted, Jagger, and you’re right, “You can’t always get what you want,” but as it turns out “if you try sometimes you get what you need.”

 

[Sirius]

Dr. Cuddy: Oh, I looked into that philosopher you quoted, Jagger, and you’re right, “You can’t always get what you want,” but as it turns out “if you try sometimes you get what you need.”

There was another philosopher named Josey Wales who said,"To hell with them fellas. Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms."
Hopefully our small businesses will not vanish.

 

[Fitzie]

/begin musing

From my point of view, it still gives smokers a better chance to quit than cigAlikes or (perhaps) no vaping at all.

(Nate, I applaud the fact that you quit w/ cigAlikes, but what I hear is that this is rare. That's why I feel that there's no future, especially given the public health "balancing act.")

Even if vaping is "commoditized" - if there are good-quality systems and lots of flavor options, then this will probably create dramatic reductions in the rate of tobacco cigarette smoking. And if the public health effects of tobacco cigarette smoking are even a quarter of what the ANTZ claim they are, this reduction alone will be a very good thing (as compared to only having cigAlikes - which leads nowhere because they will be banned sooner or later).

Once virtually all smokers have been converted to vapers, the American Tobacco Control Governent-Industrial Complex may lack a raison d'etre Perhaps they'll magically transform themselves into the food police (or the weight police). Maybe the hangnail cops. Who knows. Stanton Glantz will probably retire while the Tobacco Control gig is going great, but Prue Talbott may have to find other kinds of "fish" to fry (or bake).

All I can say for sure is that prohibitionists can never be themselves prohibitited, any more than death and taxes.

At some point in the future, a clever teenager may figure out how to derive nicotine from an eggplant and a couple of then-common kitchen products. And by then, 3D printers will be used to build puck mods - or the equivalent - thus eliminating the BT/BV monopoly.

That might be long after I'm dead. But at least vaping may be saved in the meantime by "commoditization," and all those smokers will get a better chance to quit.

I would've vastly preferred self-regulation. But as the song goes ... "you can't always get what you want ..."

/musing

Muse away. I'm beginning to think I should limit my posting to other areas of the forum and will do accordingly (at least until I change my mind on that)

Cheers!

 

[tombaker]

With which of the following do you disagree?

3) The SE pathway is easier. The "belief 3" that you quoted from my 'misconceptions' thread's OP refers only to that.

This....while in theory the SE pathway should be easier, the required work to establish that the Ruyan is Predicate, IS difficult on itself alone. After that work is done, the required arguments that the new product is SE enough, is an Argument, waiting for determination. Using SE of a 2007 predicate should be done concurrently with new product application. And both will need determination before any FDA action is done.

4) While you and others made a valiant attempt to get the Ruyan evidence, I think that's (at best) still in limbo, and no one ever assumed that the approval of cigAlikes was exclusively conditioned on the success of such efforts to find a predicate. (Otherwise the consensus would probably be that no vaping products would be approved.

^^ Seriously? Lafayette, have been saying the consensus is that the deeming regulations ban 99% of the vaping world as we know it. And because of the 2007 date to boot. Are you now changing your view?

5) My understanding is that people believed that cigAlikes would make it as completely new products, i.e. with no predicates, only because BT/BV had the deep pockets to fight (including the ability to sustain a number of years without sales), and/or that FDA didn't want to be in the embarassing position of rejecting all vaping products. (My own little 'conspiracy' theory' is that FDA likes cigAlikes because they know most users are dual users - see next para.) Therefore it would either explicitly approve some of these cigAlikes, or simply leave them alone, since pre-market approval is not required for any vaping product introduced and applied-for prior to the closing of the 2-year window.

(My theory on that was that the FDA would ignore the cigAlikes for some years, and then reject them after the evidence about dual users was incontrovertible. But that's not important - what matters is that the product stays on the market until the appl is reviewed, so long as the appl was submitted before the window closed.)

A Protank on top of a Provari is the exact same function as a BLU cig. Currently the difference which is not substantial is the wicking from polyfill, vs Silica. Under exactly what basis do you think the FDA can make a legal conclusion that one can go on market vs the other. AND IF YOU THINK, the FDA is going to target one manufacturer over another on the basis of your self proclaimed conspiracy of FDA preferences......please explain how all that would ever hold up in court? The Sottera decision was not just a single judge, it was held up in the highest Appellate court of the land, the last stop would have been the US Supreme Court, and the FDA did not even to attempt that for good reason.

6) [Just as background] The reason that most people view the tobacco act as effectively freezing the Feb 2007 state of tobacco cigarettes, is that pre-market approval was required for any products introduced after March '11 (and even prior to March 11, they still had to be under the SE rubric). The consensus was that FDA would simply do nothing with the new product applications, thus effectively keeping any product off the market, so long as it required pre-market approval. Which is apparently what's occured in all-but-one case. (And since the applicant firms can't sue until the product is rejected, it's effectively denied-by-permanent-delay.)

The deeming rule has a clear 2 year period where product can be marketed before applications are in. The two year period is expected to take an addition 2 years before the clock starts. And the FDA will not take any action until after a determination is made. If its anything like the 3500 products waiting on their applications now, but being sold currently. You can give it another 3 years.

2+2+3=the year 2021, so start freezing that E-Liquid now.

***

My point in this thread is that NJOY has the deep pockets needed to drop tens of millions on the needed public health studies for new products, to sustain 5 years or so of no revenune, and to drop more tens of mllions on litigation. Eventually, a new vaping product that has a great track record in helping people quit should be approved under the statute, even under the 100% new product (i.e. no SE) pathway. But of course, it will probably take a court to force FDA to do this, which is why the I'm assuming that any firm which tries this needs to be able to make no money on the product for 5 years or so until a DC ct. of appeals can hear the case, and maybe even until The Supremes either hear it or deny cert.

Can you imagine if you read that by a poster other than yourself? 5 years of no revenue theory? Assumption after assumption, built on baseless theories, makes for a foundation, that can not even support the house of cards, before a gust of vape blows in.

 

[Katya]

Never mind...

 

[tombaker]

Lafayette, from what you post has, and especially the parts I bolded out, I have gotta ask.
Do YOU actually Vape?
E-Cigs sales remain the majority of the Vaping world, user for user. I really have to wonder why you think that E-Cigs (Cig-a-likes if you prefer) don't successfully get people off Analogs. They do, and often. Is that really something you dispute? All of the powerful evidence of Analogs users going off using Vaping comes from the hordes of E-Cig users.

I have built many PCs for people, I like hardware. I went quickly to Cig-a-like E-Liquid devices. V2, has two of them, one refillable, the newest sealed, Apollo has several of them, and so do others.

I am talking Cigalike Liquid products. Do you actually not understand they are out there and being used?

Which is why I asked, and I will accept whatever answer, but Lafayette do you Vape?

The reason I went to a Protank system was cost. I can rebuild a coil faster than I can clean one. But at a commodity price of 6 bucks for 5 delivered to my door, I may just start cleaning them 3 times and tossing them. (into a bag to keep for later to rebuild when I change my mind again of course) I hate Polyfill, and I switched to Ego threading because I wanted the cleaner taste, and was cheap about it.

Even the higher priced Liquid sealed cartomizers, without pollyfill, give a great Vape, AT a much lower cost than analogs.

Lafayette, you have to understand, that getting off Analogs, with Cigalikes IS NOT RARE. Come on, whatever I think, I have to think you understand that part. And Cig-a-likes are refillable if we even need to go there, we all know this.

Lafayette-----> Do you Vape? Can you then explain why you don't understand the basics of Vaping.

/begin musing

From my point of view, it still gives smokers a better chance to quit than cigAlikes or (perhaps) no vaping at all.

(Nate, I applaud the fact that you quit w/ cigAlikes, but what I hear is that this is rare. That's why I feel that there's no future, especially given the public health "balancing act.")

Even if vaping is "commoditized" - if there are good-quality systems and lots of flavor options, then this will probably create dramatic reductions in the rate of tobacco cigarette smoking. And if the public health effects of tobacco cigarette smoking are even a quarter of what the ANTZ claim they are, this reduction alone will be a very good thing (as compared to only having cigAlikes - which leads nowhere because they will be banned sooner or later).

Once virtually all smokers have been converted to vapers, the American Tobacco Control Governent-Industrial Complex may lack a raison d'etre Perhaps they'll magically transform themselves into the food police (or the weight police). Maybe the hangnail cops. Who knows. Stanton Glantz will probably retire while the Tobacco Control gig is going great, but Prue Talbott may have to find other kinds of "fish" to fry (or bake).

All I can say for sure is that prohibitionists can never be themselves prohibitited, any more than death and taxes.

At some point in the future, a clever teenager may figure out how to derive nicotine from an eggplant and a couple of then-common kitchen products. And by then, 3D printers will be used to build puck mods - or the equivalent - thus eliminating the BT/BV monopoly.

That might be long after I'm dead. But at least vaping may be saved in the meantime by "commoditization," and all those smokers will get a better chance to quit.

I would've vastly preferred self-regulation. But as the song goes ... "you can't always get what you want ..."

/musing

 

[Katya]

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Lafayette, from what you post has, and especially the parts I bolded out, I have gotta ask.
Do YOU actually Vape?
E-Cigs sales remain the majority of the Vaping world, user for user. I really have to wonder why you think that E-Cigs (Cig-a-likes if you prefer) don't successfully get people off Analogs. They do, and often. Is that really something you dispute? All of the powerful evidence of Analogs users going off using Vaping comes from the hordes of E-Cig users.

I have built many PCs for people, I like hardware. I went quickly to Cig-a-like E-Liquid devices. V2, has two of them, one refillable, the newest sealed, Apollo has several of them, and so do others.

I am talking Cigalike Liquid products. Do you actually not understand they are out there and being used?

Which is why I asked, and I will accept whatever answer, but Lafayette do you Vape?

The reason I went to a Protank system was cost. I can rebuild a coil faster than I can clean one. But at a commodity price of 6 bucks for 5 delivered to my door, I may just start cleaning them 3 times and tossing them. (into a bag to keep for later to rebuild when I change my mind again of course) I hate Polyfill, and I switched to Ego threading because I wanted the cleaner taste, and was cheap about it.

Even the higher priced Liquid sealed cartomizers, without pollyfill, give a great Vape, AT a much lower cost than analogs.

Lafayette, you have to understand, that getting off Analogs, with Cigalikes IS NOT RARE. Come on, whatever I think, I have to think you understand that part. And Cig-a-likes are refillable if we even need to go there, we all know this.

Lafayette-----> Do you Vape? Can you then explain why you don't understand the basics of Vaping.

I have no idea what you mean since when I started my journey on cigalikes. They were horrible. I almost went back to smoking, then I discovered tanks and mods. That's been a while. I've watched my Mother try several different cigalikes and would go back to smoking each time due to poor performance, that is until I discovered vaping and she tried mine. Now she is deep into vaping after quitting a 50 year habit.

Honestly cigalikes are just garbage. Every one I've tried does not satisfy me, poor vapor, and the battery life is rediculous.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Btw: cigalikes are probably the higher volumes sold but the majority will return to smoking if they don't discover vaping. Read these forums for a while and you'll see that's true. Very few Vapers go back to smoking because better tanks/mods are much more satisfying than the cheap garbage called cigalikes. Sure, they have their place. They are a stepping stone.


Also, when I see people using a cigalike I really want them to taste juice in an actual tank. It's a world of difference. Night and day. Every person I know, including family members started on ecigs but went quickly to vaping tanks because of how unsatisfying cigalikes were.

 

[tombaker]

I have no idea what you mean since when I started my journey on cigalikes. They were horrible. I almost went back to smoking, then I discovered tanks and mods. That's been a while. I've watched my Mother try several different cigalikes and would go back to smoking each time due to poor performance, that is until I discovered vaping and she tried mine. Now she is deep into vaping after quitting a 50 year habit.

Honestly cigalikes are just garbage. Every one I've tried does not satisfy me, poor vapor, and the battery life is rediculous.

I had two batteries, one on the charger the other on the device, I could use them all day long no stopping. A third battery at 15 bucks might have been a bit nicer. I prefer using Cigalike tanks, with E-Liquid. The coils were not replaceable, but as a disposable tank on a 808D, that NEVER leaked, the performance and taste was pretty darn good. Batteries regulated at 4.2 was good enough for throat hit, vs the older 3.7s, and Smokeless Images has variable for 808D, but the size creeps up fast for different mah rates. I sold all my 808D but will be going back soon because of the portability.

There are new all liquid, no pollyfill cartomziers out there. Cigalikes improving all the time. The time overhead for vaping as hobby is something that a lot of people don't want to deal with. I want to be able to give to older friends a Cigalike that is fire and forget, replace when empty, never burnt taste....and that is only available on the Cartridge side of the world. Today's Cigalikes are not like your mama's cigalikes, I do dare say. Not saying you didn't buy some junky ones though, they are out there too.

All this said....does not answer the question. Does Lafayette Vape?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I bought Njoy and Blu. My Mom had tried over the years and even recently bought some high dollar crap. She has tried every thing out there. They were nothing like vaping! I guess if you don't Vape much you could get longer battery life. We are Vapers who go through the juice and need real performance. A cigalike just doesn't have the specs to hold up to a mod battery. The battery on a cigalike isn't designed to last if used regularly. Plus, the taste difference. If you take a Russian 91 on a Provari with some good juice its heaven.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

All I'm saying is everyone I know used cigalikes as a stepping stone and moved on to vaping.

 

[Katya]

Batteries regulated at 4.2 was good enough for throat hit,

Such batteries do not exist. There is no Li-Ion battery regulated at 4.2v. Period. There are unregulated Li-Ion batteries that come off the charger at 4.2v (briefly) and then quickly go down to 3.7v, and then cut off at 3.2v or so. Example: old Kanger batteries.

vs the older 3.7s

See my comment above. "The older 3.7s" were unregulated batteries.

Then there are two kinds of regulated cigalike batteries: kr808D-1 batteries (like Bloog and Volt) are regulated at ~3.5v (per Leaford from Bloog, who helped design and manufacture them). Volt and G6 are exact clones of the Bloog batteries. SmokeStik batteries are also regulated at the same voltage. Tested by Scottbee.

The third kind of regulated cigalikes are the 510 (Joyetech)--they are regulated at 3.3v or so.

and Smokeless Images has variable for 808D,

Those are eGo-class batteries. There are no vv cigalikes.

Cigalikes improving all the time.

Not really. We still have the same three types of cigalike batteries I described above. They haven't changed substantially.

I want to be able to give to older friends a Cigalike that is fire and forget, replace when empty, never burnt taste....and that is only available on the Cartridge side of the world.

Today's Cigalikes are not like your mama's cigalikes, I do dare say.

Yes they are; they still burn because of the proximity of that nasty polyfill to the heating coil. As the eliquid level begins to go down, the risk of burning goes up. They need to be topped off early and topped off often. I started using cartomizers in 2009. I tested and dissected dozens of them. If you don't believe me, please read this thread:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...8-4081-etc-filler-type-cartos.html#post300790

All this said....does not answer the question. Does Lafayette Vape?

No, it doesn't.

BTW, do you vape?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Don't get me wrong if someone likes cigalikes that's their business. But there is a huge difference in cigalikes and vaping. The difference is substantial. They just don't have the power to do what advanced Vape gear can. If I had to go back to cigalikes I'd quit. Once you've tasted real vaping you can't go back.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Lafayette-----> Do you Vape? Can you then explain why you don't understand the basics of Vaping.

I think the question really is have you ever really tried advanced Vape gear? Because that is vaping! If you'd expand your horizon and try you'd see what the huge difference is!