FDA Game changer? - "Relax ... it's a ___ NJOY!" (NJOY to make a non-cigAlike/advanced system with a tank?)

[Kent C]

A serious thanks for that one.....I probably saw that before but stopped when reading the polycarbonate for the clear tank....and kept searching.....not noticing the colored tanks, which clearly they don't care about the cloudy polypropylene.

Polyproplene is so resistant to chemicals, if you are a fan of Breaking Bad, you can melt people in the drums of it

Gonna buy that one, at that price its a no brainer to try. thanks

You might need on of these as well, depending on what batt you're using:

U-DCT eGo battery thread cover

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Nobody is tracking it perfectly, but I believe everyone, and likely yourself, thinks the number of E-Cigs vs APV is at the smalled 2-1

There are so many incorrect statements & assumptions in this 1 sentence, alone, that I'm not even going to bother..


Now back to the topic of FDA regs...

 

[Kent C]

Tom, I'm going to try to explain this one more time. Just once, because I think it's an important issue.



Under the law, every unique product must have an associated application, if it is to remain on the market after the two-year window closes. The FDA is required to assess the public health effects.

Not the current law. Only under the proposed one. And again, what you state might not be the chosen regulatory alternative. It might be something completely different.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

This is the statement (or, more accurately, rhetorical question) of yours with which I took issue:
I took issue not only because of my own experience having quit with cigalikes (BT-owned cigalikes, no less), but because it's a sweeping generalization that could never be factually corroborated. If we know anything about vaping, it's that everyone's journey is different and there's no one-size-fits all solution that's universally applicable. If anything, the abundance of options (in terms of hardware and flavor/potency alike) is what makes vaping such a wildly successful means of smoking cessation.

Agreed. I need to be a bit more careful. Apologies again, and thanks for the observation.

Do you have any empirical basis for this assertion, or is it just a personal hunch based primarily on the fact that you don't like cigalikes? Moreover, I think "dual user" is such a difficult term to define that it probably doesn't have much usefulness. According to the best available numbers, the average "dual user" has cut their daily cigarette consumption from 22 to 4. These people are going to gain nearly as many health benefits as those who quit entirely, and there's no reason to assume their cigarette intake will ever return to pre-vaping levels, so for all intents and purposes, "dual user" is probably a superfluous distinction, since we have yet to hear of any individual who went on to smoke more cigarettes after they took up vaping. It seems to be a near-universal truth that smokers who start vaping either quit smoking entirely or significantly curtail their cigarette consumption. Obviously, either of these is a worthwhile outcome and a demonstrable net gain in terms of public health.

As I said before, I don't have any evidence for the relative significance of dual use among cigAlike vapers versus non-cigAlike vapers. And plus there's the transitional issue, which is tough. I did start with a cigAlike, and I bet many people have. No studies on that one, either.

For reduced tobacco cigarette smoking, c.f. what I said above about the evidence. Better quality of life, but not necessarily more longevity.

The problem with your last sentence is that these smokers who cut down may also be smokers who would otherwise quit completely - had they not used any vaping technology.

That can't be demonstrated in the case of any individual person, of course. But the longitudinal population studies may bear this out, c.f. my point above in #99. And the FDA has to weigh those effects.

If the FDA can prove that a particular device means fewer quitters on average, then it can argue to a court that there is lower average longevity, and therefore that the health effects are negative. (To be more precise, I think the application has to demonstrate that there are positive health effects. And if the FDA turns it down, then of course it may end up in the courts.)

As I said, the balancing act between reduced tobacco cigarette smoking as a result of any vaping device, versus reduced quitting associated with that device might be tricky. But in the current way of thinking in the US public health community, there are no benefits from reduced tobacco cigarette smoking.

As I said in #99, that's why you don't see public service ads anymore that say "If you cah't quit, at least cut down."

As far as the public health community is concerned - a smoker is a smoker. And it doesn't matter whether it's one cigarette a year, or five PAD.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Not the current law. Only under the proposed one. And again, what you state might not be the chosen regulatory alternative. It might be something completely different.

Edited and fixed. Words "current law" change to "proposed rule." Thanks.

 

[Nate760]

The problem with your last sentence is that these smokers who cut down may also be smokers who would otherwise quit completely - had they not used any vaping technology.

I'm hard pressed to imagine any scenario in which vaping would prevent someone from quitting smoking who otherwise would have. Frankly, this is the kind of specious hypothetical that we normally hear from alarmist politicians.

 

[Sirius]

I'm hard pressed to imagine any scenario in which vaping would prevent someone from quitting smoking who otherwise would have. Frankly, this is the kind of specious hypothetical that we normally hear from alarmist politicians.

Gutfield was just talking about that on The Five on Fox..Not everyone's cup of tea but he went on another pretty good rant..lol

 

[2coils]

I'm hard pressed to imagine any scenario in which vaping would prevent someone from quitting smoking who otherwise would have. Frankly, this is the kind of specious hypothetical that we normally hear from alarmist politicians.

While most everyone here would agree, I'm quite certain the FDA's take is NOT the same as ours.

 

[aubergine]

(Just an aside.
A simple ECF search on the cunning 'Roger Lafayette' quickly confirms our suspicion that he has carefully constructed a history and a false identity designed to lead us to believe that he is, in fact, a Vaper.
From cleverly constructed early comments in which he impersonates a newbie, enthusiastic about a particular juice at a specific strength (oh, he has done his research!), pleased to have a collection of newly unused ashtrays (such a clever, artfully placed detail!),
to deceptively artless questions designed to create the impression that he's a new initiate in the art of "DIYing" (he at one point notes that sometimes he just "dumps some VG in", thus subtly undermining our credibility as careful craftspersons),
to carefully researched and authentic-sounding claims that he's jerry-rigged a leaking ProTank with duct tape, and so on,
his failure to be conspicuously absent as an authentic Vaper demonstrates unequivocally that he is, in fact, not one.

I suggest that we purge him from our midst forthwith.)

 

[Kent C]

(Just an aside.
A simple ECF search on the cunning 'Roger Lafayette' quickly confirms our suspicion that he has carefully constructed a history and a false identity designed to lead us to believe that he is, in fact, a Vaper.
From cleverly constructed early comments in which he impersonates a newbie, enthusiastic about a particular juice at a specific strength (oh, he has done his research!), pleased to have a collection of newly unused ashtrays (such a clever, artfully placed detail!),
to deceptively artless questions designed to create the impression that he's a new initiate in the art of "DIYing" (he at one point notes that sometimes he just "dumps some VG in", thus subtly undermining our credibility as careful craftspersons),
to carefully researched and authentic-sounding claims that he's jerry-rigged a leaking ProTank with duct tape, and so on,
his failure to be conspicuously absent as an authentic Vaper demonstrates unequivocally that he is, in fact, not one.

I suggest that we purge him from our midst forthwith.)

It's what I've thought all along

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

It's what I've thought all along

I know

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

I'm hard pressed to imagine any scenario in which vaping would prevent someone from quitting smoking who otherwise would have. Frankly, this is the kind of specious hypothetical that we normally hear from alarmist politicians.

Well, again, we're not talking about individuals, but rather longitudinal population studies.

Anyway this is the that passes for science in the public health area. I'm sure you read blogs by C.V. Phillips, Mike Seigel, Brad Rodu, Cilve Bates, and all the rest.

Breathing is a gateway activity to death. And so forth.

 

[Sirius]

(Just an aside.
A simple ECF search on the cunning 'Roger Lafayette' quickly confirms our suspicion that he has carefully constructed a history and a false identity designed to lead us to believe that he is, in fact, a Vaper.
From cleverly constructed early comments in which he impersonates a newbie, enthusiastic about a particular juice at a specific strength (oh, he has done his research!), pleased to have a collection of newly unused ashtrays (such a clever, artfully placed detail!),
to deceptively artless questions designed to create the impression that he's a new initiate in the art of "DIYing" (he at one point notes that sometimes he just "dumps some VG in", thus subtly undermining our credibility as careful craftspersons),
to carefully researched and authentic-sounding claims that he's jerry-rigged a leaking ProTank with duct tape, and so on,
his failure to be conspicuously absent as an authentic Vaper demonstrates unequivocally that he is, in fact, not one.

I suggest that we purge him from our midst forthwith.)

Is this a joke? Well?

 

[Sirius]

This is the that passes for science in the public health area. I'm sure you read blogs by C.V. Phillips, Mike Seigel, Brad Rodu, Cilve Bates, and all the rest.

Breathing is a gateway activity to death. And so forth.

Well Roger? What say ye?

 

[Sirius]

 

[Nate760]

I'm sure you read blogs by C.V. Phillips, Mike Seigel, Brad Rodu, Cilve Bates, and all the rest.

I've read Siegel's blog maybe twice. Not familiar with any of the others.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Is this a joke? Well?

No, I've spent months building a phony identity as a vaper - just for this thread

Aubs busted me. Darn.

Oh yeah and I became a supporting member of ECF and contributed to CASAA just to keep up the charade. And listened to CASAA conf. calls, etc.

It was hard work, lemmee tell ya

 

[Katya]

We can, however, say two things with absolute certitude: 1) no vaping product, cigalike or otherwise, makes anyone's smoking habit worse; and 2) Even if cigalikes are significantly less effective cessation devices than PVs, they're still significantly MORE effective than any traditional NRT product.

Strongly agree.

As you know, Nate, those of us who have been vaping for a long time (4.5 years in my case) are very familiar with many devices. We all started with cigalikes because nothing else was available at the time. Many quit right away, others still struggle and continue to smoke. A few of my dearest and oldest ECF friends are still dual users even though they have upgraded to ProVaris and RBAs. On the other hand, I know of several vapers who started with cigalikes and still use them--and they don't smoke anymore. They just like the small form of a mini battery and don't mind the hassle of constant recharging and swapping batteries and cartos.

Whatever works.

I used to love the minis because of their similarity to the real thing. My first battery was white with an orange LED and tan cartos--filled with tobacco and menthol eliquids. That's what I wanted then. Now I don't like them because they remind me of cigarettes. Now I love my boxy, walkie-talkie-alike MVP2 and my ProVari with a clear tank on top--because now I'm a vaper and vaping is not like smoking to me anymore. I don't want it to be like smoking. I'm doing something else now. I have a new habit. I have retrained my brain and my muscles. Likewise, I don't vape tobacco flavors either. I don't need or want that anymore.

If cigalikes didn't exist, I'm 100% certain I'd still be smoking. If ECF didn't exist, I'm 99% certain I'd still be smoking.

We need choices of vaping gear and continued, unimpeded innovation. I don't want to be forced back to cigalikes. Been there done that. I'm not interested in "imitation smoking" anymore.

 

[Katya]

Gutfield was just talking about that on The Five on Fox..Not everyone's cup of tea but he went on another pretty good rant..lol

Not much of a rant. He can do better.

He was actually quite subdued today.

 

[aubergine]

Is this a joke? Well?