Gamechanger?

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thanswr1

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  • Jan 16, 2017
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      Puff Bar Punches Back

      Puff Bar Punches Back
      >>>>
      Most of us remember Puff Bar, and their troubles barely a year ago. But it looks like they aren't tucking their tails and running away like everyone had initially thought.

      For those who don't recall, Puff Bar had their sales boosted in early 2020 when flavored e-juice refill pods were taken off the market; because Puff Bar's disposables weren't technically refillable, the bans didn't apply to them. Anti-tobacco groups and the US government called for a ban on Puff Bar, when the FDA started cracking down on underage vaping. Puff Bar proactively declared that they would stop their US sales, and in July of 2020, the FDA ordered them to halt sales completely, which they did. Puff Bar has been relatively quiet ever since.

      But now, Puff Bar appears to be back, and they've introduced a change which may allow it to get around the FDA's scrutiny: Puff Bar says it's using synthetic tobacco-free nicotine (known in some circles as "TF,") in their disposables now, which means it technically isn't a tobacco product anymore—even if it is still a nicotine product<<<

      Interesting. The FDA's meddling in vape products is based on the gospel "nicotine is a tobacco product. Vape devices use nicotine. Therefore, vape devices and everything involved in them are a tobacco product".

      But what happens when the nicotine is not derived from tobacco? Hmmm.

      IMO, this is a game changer. It would have to be a helluva stretch calling a tobacco product when that product has no tobacco products. Like for example, synthetic nicotine which is not derived from tobacco.

      Now, I don't believe for one second the FDA is just going to roll over and play dead for synthetic nicotine. They'll come up with some convoluted excuse.

      However, lawsuits may say differently. If I was regulating potatoes, that doesn't mean I can regulate carrots by claiming they're potatoes. How does someone deem something a "tobacco product" when it is neither a tobacco product nor derived from one?

      We live in interesting times. I keep saying the last chapter has not been written when it comes to vaping.

      I've also said, if there's a buck to made, someone will come up with a way.
       
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      thanswr1

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        I dunno, seems like they're approaching this assuming the govt acts rationally.

        Let's get this out of the way. The government will NOT act rationally. However, the rationale behind treating e-cigarettes, and all its components, as tobacco is because it contains nicotine that comes from tobacco.

        The point is what happens if none of the components of e-cigarettes comes from tobacco.

        I anticipate the government will act like jackasses. But they may lose this one.
         

        zoiDman

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          Now, I don't believe for one second the FDA is just going to roll over and play dead for synthetic nicotine. They'll come up with some convoluted excuse.

          ...

          When you push the power of your Favorite Mode, if you Don't Claim you are doing so merely for the Recreational Enjoyment of Tobacco, then can't the FDA assert that your Intent is to use Nicotine as a Drug?

          And Wasn't that where Judge Leon drew a Bright Line when the FDA wanted to Squash e-Cigarettes back in 2009?
           

          thanswr1

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            When you push the power of your Favorite Mode, if you Don't Claim you are doing so merely for the Recreational Enjoyment of Tobacco, then can't the FDA assert that your Intent is to use Nicotine as a Drug?

            And Wasn't that where Judge Leon drew a Bright Line when the FDA wanted to Squash e-Cigarettes back in 2009?

            I'm just throwing the possibilities out there.

            I'm sure the FDA will assert every cockamamie excuse. But the reason why e-cigarettes are being regulated as "tobacco products", along with all the related paraphenalia, is because nicotine derives from tobacco.

            I'm saying what if it doesn't derive from tobacco. Like, for example, synthetic nicotine.

            The FDA's contentions have been full of holes since day one. IMO, the advent of synthetic nicotine makes those holes the size of the Grand Canyon.
             

            r77r7r

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              Tobacco control activists have long advocated for the FDA to regulate synthetic nicotine, to avoid this very situation. The prospect of unregulated products made with synthetic nicotine creating a new vaping “wild west” right when anti-vaping groups finally have the vaping industry on the ropes is maddening to those organizations.

              There are essentially three ways synthetic nicotine could be captured by the government (with a lot of potential variations):

              • Congress could amend the Tobacco Control Act to include synthetic nicotine
              • FDA could claim synthetic nicotine is a drug and attempt to regulate it as one
              • FDA could attempt to deem synthetic nicotine to be a tobacco product
              All three strategies could be challenged in court, but in the long run, it is difficult to believe that this loophole would survive determined efforts to close it.
               

              zoiDman

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                There are essentially three ways synthetic nicotine could be captured by the government (with a lot of potential variations):

                • Congress could amend the Tobacco Control Act to include synthetic nicotine
                • FDA could claim synthetic nicotine is a drug and attempt to regulate it as one
                • FDA could attempt to deem synthetic nicotine to be a tobacco product
                All three strategies could be challenged in court, but in the long run, it is difficult to believe that this loophole would survive determined efforts to close it.

                Bullet Point #1 is a Possibility. Especially now that Power has Shifted in Congress/WH

                Bullet Point #2 is almost a Slam Dunk.

                Bullet Point #3 is a Very Problematic. The words "Made From or Derived From Tobacco" in the FSTCA is what gives the FDA the Authority to Deem in the 1st Place. Without an amendment from Congress, I Don't see how Deeming TFN could withstand a Court Challenge.
                 

                Rossum

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                  FDA could claim synthetic nicotine is a drug and attempt to regulate it as one
                  Classifying nicotine vapes as "unapproved drug delivery devices" is exactly what the FDA did back in 2008-2009, and then they blocked imports. The only thing that saved vaping then was Judge Leon telling them, "Nope, it's a tobacco product".

                  Now if someone wants to claim their nicotine-containing vape isn't a tobacco product because the nicotine doesn't come from tobacco, guess what the FDA will treat it as?
                   
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