Glycerin and the 'Acrolein problem' anyone vaping VG read this

[kinabaloo]

It is hard to sleep now ...

I wouldn;t myself have raised this in the general forum with the words 'everybody read this'. It is urgent though and i understand the reasoning. But we musn't get it out of proportion. Just remember that list of toxins in analogs. Sure I want a list of zero, but let's be calm and do the tests.

 

[kinabaloo]

Never seen the health section TBob - I must have a home page that is not the top level

If there really is no concern then the temperature figures must be wrong somewhere ...

If these figures are correct 250 coil temp and 280 VG degrades - that is too close for comfort as lots of factors could rase the coil temp by just enough to cause problems

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Just read the New Zeland study and you will see as Trobical Bob points out it was dismissed outright as an issue---Sun

 

[Phalse]

so much info, im catching up. Going to read the New Z study

 

[rlorange]

Glad to everyone is taking this issue seriously also glad to see that others have done a lot of research especially actually measuring atomizer temp.

The BP. for VG is 290 degrees Celsius according to five separate chemistry MSDS data sheets.

The 280 degrees Celsius for the formation of Acrolein I originally cited from Wikipedia under Acrolein. Of course I didn't trust wiki straight off so I found three other sites metioning the same thing.

I honestly don't see why people are worried about PG and assuming its safe it has a far lower BP. which means more efficient vapour production according to the laws of physics. PG is less viscous, more volatile and more stable with no breakdown proucts before it boils. And its BP is 100 degrees lower. Assuming PG is safe then it is the clear winner on all fron't except taste maybe.

A good easy test would be to visible observe if straight VG boils on an exposed atomizer coil imersed in VG. If it does then it is making acrolien 100% guaranteed. If it nearly boils (i.e. visible bubble form on the coil then you might still be near 280 degrees.

I am trying to find out how fast Acrolein forms near its boiling point. hopefully it is slow reaction. Also it makes sense that the Acrolein fromation has to be below its BP otherwise you would not get the reaction at all under normal atmospheric pressure in the lab! pretty hard to a reaction to happen in VG vapour!

 

[kinabaloo]

I dont agree the last paragraph. But i'm way too tired to think straight now.

I personally am not convinced there is no issue, but i don't think you have as strong a case as you think. This is just a possibility. I think acrolein forms only on combustion when there is insuffiecient oxygen. Going on memory there, but so tired need to drop now.

Reactions can most certainly happen in the gaseous state. And decomposition does not necessarily involve reaction with another agent. So on these two points your science is wrong.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Glad to everyone is taking this issue seriously also glad to see that others have done a lot of research especially actually measuring atomizer temp.

The BP. for VG is 290 degrees Celsius according to five separate chemistry MSDS data sheets.

The 280 degrees Celsius for the formation of Acrolein I originally cited from Wikipedia under Acrolein. Of course I didn't trust wiki straight off so I found three other sites metioning the same thing.

I honestly don't see why people are worried about PG and assuming its safe it has a far lower BP. which means more efficient vapour production according to the laws of physics. PG is less viscous, more volatile and more stable with no breakdown proucts before it boils. And its BP is 100 degrees lower. Assuming PG is safe then it is the clear winner on all fron't except taste maybe.

A good easy test would be to visible observe if straight VG boils on an exposed atomizer coil imersed in VG. If it does then it is making acrolien 100% guaranteed. If it nearly boils (i.e. visible bubble form on the coil then you might still be near 280 degrees.

I am trying to find out how fast Acrolein forms near its boiling point. hopefully it is slow reaction. Also it makes sense that the Acrolein fromation has to be below its BP otherwise you would not get the reaction at all under normal atmospheric pressure in the lab! pretty hard to a reaction to happen in VG vapour!

I have put VG on an open atomizer and cooked it--Acrolein has a very foul odor. I got no odor and I am still here----again this issue comes up every month when someone reads on the internet that VG can produce Acrolein--the atomizer will not do it as has been studied and stated here so many times---------Sun

 

[Phalse]

If you can mix water with PG or VG, can you just vape water/nic/flavor instead of PG/VG?

How come it has to be a chemical more complex than water?

I'm not complaining about PG, and wouldnt mix my own juice yet, still need to read a bit more.
I was just wondering these things.

 

[surbitonPete]

I do wonder if this is more of an issue than we think because when an atomizer is caked in crud..and I am having to do warm up puffs in order to get it much hotter to produce vapour....I do sometimes get a very burning fat like smell and taste from it....personaly I would buy glycerine free juice just to be safe but TW has it listed as part of the ingredients in it's juice anyway.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

If you can mix water with PG or VG, why can you just vape water/nic/flavor instead of PG/VG?

Phalse--the PG or VG act as the medium to hold the flavor, nicotine, and produce the vapor--water will only produce steam-----------Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

A complication here is that 'burning' can be used to mean decompose or 'on fire' (reacting with oxygen). To be clear, i have ead only that acrolein can be a product of combustion when there is insuffiecient oxygen (like say, carbon monoxide), not when dregrading (breaking down) due to temperature.

 

[Phalse]

And steam just wouldnt hold the nic+flavor, hence you need a more complex molecular formula like PG or VG.

Thanks sun, that makes sense.

 

[rlorange]

Oh and I specifically said 'everyone vaping VG read this' not 'everyone read this' so I don't think I'm being alarmist. Especially as most people vape the manufactured liquid which uses PG instead of VG.

There seems to be this assumption that the Chinese manufaturers don't know what they are doing and are probably either deliberately or because of a lack of concern contaminating out liquids. By USA made etc. etc... Well I think this is condescending to the manufaturers. I am sure that there is a good reasons why the manufacturer uses PG instead of VG and I'm sure that the main reason is the Acrolein concern.

So my 'everyone who vapes VG' is directed at those people who think that they know better than the inventors and manufacturers of the e cigarettes, those who sell 'USA made' VG liquids before fully investigating this matter, and those who use VG thinking that it is somehow better than PG and who do don't fully appreciate how serious the Acrolein concern is.

Acrolein is highly toxic, A lot of very hot VG and an atomizer gone thermonucler (probably because someone hooks it up to a big, bad battery) has the potential to make lots of this stuff, cigarettes have traces in them and it is still highly damaging.

Well I am glad that everyone is interested and taking the issue seriously. Nobody is dead yet but but even one case of Acrolein poisoning has the potential to shut down e smoking for good. No other concern has this potential so I do believe it is highly irresponsibly for Johnson Creek and other makers of VG liquids to be taking this risk.

 

[Phalse]

A complication here is that 'burning' can be used to mean decompose or 'on fire' (reacting with oxygen). To be clear, i have ead only that acrolein can be a product of combustion when there is insuffiecient oxygen (like say, carbon monoxide), not when dregrading (breaking down) due to temperature.

Thats pretty much what the study/report from new zeland that dismisses acrolein production in e-cigs is saying, correct?

 

[kinabaloo]

The VG / PG creates the visble fog (tiny particles of recondensed PG/VG). I think nicotine dissolves in water but not sure. If it did, that is a possibility but there would be no 'smoke effect'.

 

[Phalse]

The Chinese are so smart, yeah I don't think they are trying to poison or hurt anyone.

It's pretty rare overall for them to invade another country even being so powerful they just chill in china

Overall Japan is meaner then China (short man syndrome? lol not meaning they are short but "smaller" compared to china population), japan attacks people often and invades more people, including attacking China in the past. But Japan renounced war after WWII. I think they are pretty serious about that too unless attacked.

Then the regular citizens in china still care about people and have empathy just like any other human. It's the overall goverment that gives a bad perception of china, creates accidents and sends out crappy goods that poison. The gov is behind business there. So if you get poisoned you gotta get back at the company that poisoned you, which is backed by china government!

 

[kinabaloo]

rlorange - I do understand the concern. And I'm not yet dismissing it. But i see only a possibility; i think you should raise the 'possibility', not be so emphatic. Perhaps the deniers are also too too confident; i say perhaps because there are reports apparently but i have not yet read them. Perhaps the test were carried out only in ideal conditions; in real life, atomisers get clogged and the coil ages gets thinner, with 'hot spots', what then? Even iHowever, even id VG can degrade in some circumstances, acrolein might not be a breakdown product in those circumstances. This is not a simple matter.

phalse - i need to read the report.

but first i need to sleep.

Just remember guys, we're all on the same side.

ps : the main reason for choosing PG might well have been less power needed, as you know.

 

[ChainSmkr]

...the lab that analyzed the TW liquid recommended using VG instead of PG to reduce the health risks. Its in the health section on these forums.

Nuck is correct. VG was recommended to replace PG in the lab study of TW e-liquid. Here's another link to look at, skip to the bottom where is makes two recommendations:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2369043/Analysis-of-Components-from-Totally-Wicked-ES-Smoking-Liquid

If you look up acrolein in wikipedia you'll find that it is used in the preparation of both PG and glycerol (aka VG aka glycerin). You'll also find it to be a toxin in the (analog) cigarette smoke we've all been puffing and inhaling for years. Like nicotine, there seems to be varying health results based on inhalation, ingestion, or skin contact. And of course the quantity and amount of exposure are factors also. It also states that acrolein is not a suspected carcinogen.

The chances of an atomizer turning VG into acrolein are slim and if it does the quantity minute compared to what analog smokers have already been exposed to...so, again, the good of e-cigs far outweighs the evil of analogs.

As far as the temp numbers I've read. I'm confused. If PG only requires 188º C and glycerol (VG) requires 280º C, I'd go with the 280 because its less likely the atomizer can achieve that.

I use 100% VG now but know that I still get PG in some of the e-liquid I purchase. PG or VG, both are better health-wise than analogs so I won't be losing any sleep over it. Hell based on what I know about analogs, I shouldn't even be here to post.

 

[surbitonPete]

Oh and I specifically said 'everyone vaping VG read this' not 'everyone read this' so I don't think I'm being alarmist. Especially as most people vape the manufactured liquid which uses PG instead of VG.

There seems to be this assumption that the Chinese manufaturers don't know what they are doing and are probably either deliberately or because of a lack of concern contaminating out liquids. By USA made etc. etc... Well I think this is condescending to the manufaturers. I am sure that there is a good reasons why the manufacturer uses PG instead of VG and I'm sure that the main reason is the Acrolein concern.

So my 'everyone who vapes VG' is directed at those people who think that they know better than the inventors and manufacturers of the e cigarettes, those who sell 'USA made' VG liquids before fully investigating this matter, and those who use VG thinking that it is somehow better than PG and who do don't fully appreciate how serious the Acrolein concern is.

Acrolein is highly toxic, A lot of very hot VG and an atomizer gone thermonucler (probably because someone hooks it up to a big, bad battery) has the potential to make lots of this stuff, cigarettes have traces in them and it is still highly damaging.

Well I am glad that everyone is interested and taking the issue seriously. Nobody is dead yet but but even one case of Acrolein poisoning has the potential to shut down e smoking for good. No other concern has this potential so I do believe it is highly irresponsibly for Johnson Creek and other makers of VG liquids to be taking this risk.

Most people are using a mix of pg and vg ..if they are using TW liquid because it is in the ingredients listed on the bottles.

 

[rlorange]

Sorry You are right I stated my point wrong so the science came out wrong.

I meant to say that a thermal breakdown chemical reaction is going to happen in most lab conditions when a substance is either liquid or solid because the heat applied to a liquid or solid in a lab is conducted from some sort of heating element. Once boiled off at a specific temperature (it BP) the vapour cannot easily conduct more heat leading to some hypothetical breakdown temperature beyond its boiling point...

I hope that is worded well enough.

Oh and I was specifically talking about these types of thermal chemical breakdowns occuring in a liquid of which Acrolein formation is this type. It is not some sort of oxidation/combustion reaction which will of course occur when it is vapour form and there is lots of oxygen around in the air for a reaction to take place. You are correct but I was referring specifically to thermal reactions which barring some sort of pressure vessel are simple not going to occur in a vapour in lab conditions because it is not normal lab practice for vapour to become heated much beyond their boiling point.

There is no reaction possible in the cocktail of chemicals found in the e liquid that could create anything as toxic as Acrolein in suffiecient quantities. As far as possible reactions Acrolein is the concern in my opinion