Glycerin and the 'Acrolein problem' anyone vaping VG read this

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The most important test to do now ...

There is one test that to me is the most important. It can be done without a lab, but it would be a bit boring to carry out especially without setting up a pump as described below.

To use a brand new atomiser, cleaned out carefuly and preferably photographed.

Vape on this for the equivalent of say 1 week. A motorised pump with intermittent timer to do the vaping would be ideal (say one 2 second puff every 20 seconds) - using a flexible plastic tube connecting the air pump to the atomiser. For a person to do the puffs equivalent to 2 weeks vaping would be pretty boring.

Oh, but the carts would need refilling at intervals too ... Maybe 10 cartridge fills would be enough for a reasonable determination of result. A cart would last perhaps 40 puffs or 40 x 20 seconds = about 12 minutes. So about 2 hours of automatic puffing.

The juice should be VG and distilled water and nothing else. Ideally, the air wold be filtered too but a room with no other vaping, cooking etc could be considered ok.

The test is to see if any deposits are formed on the heater coil. There should be none; that, to me at least, would prove VG as safe in vaping juice. And that the deposits are are from colors and flavours and water minerals.

If there is a deposit, VG might still be safe, but the deposit would require explanation and the process looked at in more detail.
 
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Good news ...

Our ever-active member Sun has found that a concentrated phosphoric acid clean will remove something like 98% of the deposits from an atomiser that had been used with a VG juice. There seems to be almost no deposits left, and no black particles in the wash solution, suggesting that the deposits have pretty much all dissolved/been reacted with.

Although I did find one citation of phosphoric acid being able to dissolve cellulose, it is generally regarded as having no effect on polymers (plastics) and carbon. Hence, this suggests that the deposits on the atomiser that had been used with VG were pretty much all inonorganic minerals.

Although I would still like to see the test I described above performed, this latest news suggests to me that fears about VG breaking down in atomizers may be unfounded; it tips the balance in favour of VG being safe to use.
 
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Phalse

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Except wouldnt prolonged use of the atomizer (vaping a lot) and prolonged, repeated exposure to heat, break down and destory the small amount of deposits that happen to cling to just the atomizer.

So really you wouldnt be able to tell anything. The deposits would form, cling to the atomizer and be destroyed.
They may not build up enough to be detected. As it builds up the deposits are also being knocked off or heated to a high temp so many times they degrade.
BUT they would be absorbed into the lungs over time building up in your system.
 
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rlorange

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Mar 2, 2009
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As far as I know the DSE brand liquid I have used so far (the only type) from Heaven Gifts has no VG in it or very little (like 5%). The liquid is more than 85% PG.

I have yet to see any deposits form on my atomizers and this is after a month of heavy use. Mind you I do make sure my atomizers never run dry. I think that running dry would be more likely to form deposits with any liquid.

I have a feeling that Acetone would be the best for oily/gummy carbon deposits. I would be worried about the paint job on 801 or 901's though.

I used 100% pure acetone on my mini atomizer and lots of e-liquid came out but that was it. Like I mentioned I could see no carbon deposits.
 

Papa Lazarou

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Here is an approximate guide to the colour heated metal glows at different temperatures:

Faint Red 950-1050º F
Dark Red 1150-1250º F
Dark Cherry 1175-1275º F
Cherry Red 1300-1400º F
Bright Cherry 1475-1575º F
Dark Orange 1650-1750º F
Orange 1750-1850º F
Yellow 1800-1900º F
Yellow/white Over 2000º F

Source Metallurgy FAQ v1.0
 
Well based on those metal temp. figures my concerns stand even stronger!

But the coil only glows when there is no liquid on it. It all depends wheher a viscous fluid like VG might get overheated (beyong its BP) before it has the chance to evaporate. I understand that concern and have mused on it before.

Some recent (today) tests by Sun show that a concentrated phosphoric acid solution will dissolve/react with virtually all the deposits formed on the coil. This I find quite surprising as the acid can only affect inorganic minerals and not organic compounds or plain carbon; this implies that the deposits were (mostly at least) not carbon / carbon based after all. Not what i would have expected. I don't see how VG can break down to inorganic minerals like carbonates so I think this evidence points against VG breakdown being an issue, at least as big an issue as feared.

The science seems quite clear - VG does break down a bit if boiled at normal atmospheric pressure; in industrial processes they run at lower pressure for this very reason, and that lower pressure obviously enables easier evaporation. How small this portion is i don't know but probably very small (if the reason is viscosity, as i suggest) in the atomiser case because the depth of liquid on the coil will be tiny. Furthermore, the literature says that acrolein occurs only with fast heating but I have found no clear definition of 'fast'; but again this will be more minor in the atomiser where only a minute quantity is involved. My reasoning again being that fast heating can overheat part of the VG before those molecules can break out and evaporate.
 
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rlorange

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Mar 2, 2009
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Australia
Great guys I am very happy to read so much carefully researched info on this important subject. I really do hope that you are correct and that Acrolein sythesis requires more than simple heating beyond 280 degrees.

Seeing that glowing orange dry atomizer confirms my concerns but maybe only when the user lets and atomizer run dry after vaping with VG.

If an atomizer running VG liquid ran dry and got as hot as the one in the picture I would definitely be worried so...

Maybe the warning should be: 'VG vapers: DONT let your atomizers run dry or you may risk inhaling toxic acrolein'

What does everyone think of this?
 

rlorange

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 2, 2009
141
6
Australia
I think this thread has been a real success! Everyone has so much good info and great angles to contribute.

Was thinking about a small water feature I saw in a junk shop, it creates visible water mist ulltrasonically. Apparently Ruyan's original electronic cigarette patent used this technology but for some (good I'm sure) reason they went for a heating coil with their flagship V8 (which every penstyle is a replica of).

If someone invents an ultrasonic atomizer then all of these worries are over!

Maybe a combination of milder heating and ultrasonics would be the ideal solution for a safe, long-lasting solution which would avoid so many heat related issues. I wonder too if ultrasonic atomization would give much better battery life, intuitively I would say YES!!
 

Phalse

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oh man, yeah its like some people.
I do lash out at people by accident but try to say I'm sorry if that happens and they call me on it.
I know how the internet is, but dang people are all up in my personal business here!

Stuff like "credibility" "are you USA(auto jerk!)" "job" "pens owned" "time they were owned" "e-liquid flavors tasted" "using search function" influences their posts and responses to me, not actual facts. If they avoid implying personal faults in their posts and stick to facts, reasonable debate and conversation would result.

I hate how people disguise their insults behind language.

"use search function", really means, "Use the post function stupid noob your annoying me"

Sure we get that posting a lot pisses you off. You posting about us posting pisses me off. So don't diguise your post.
Either start a fight and say "hey use search noob" or dont say anything.

Then because this is my opinion, they say, its me vs the world.
Again making personal judgements based on some silly posting argument, when I never initiated anything towards them, besides a topic discussion.

I just defend myself when you focus on me personally. I'm not sorry for that.
 
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