Harvard Eliquid Study Today
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I think it's going to take quite a bit of time to pass before it's obvious to most people , i just think with the huge increase in most peoples juice consumption due to sub ohm vaping and continuing to vape these juices that contain diketones it's just a matter of time before serious health consequences reveal themselves .
Of course i can be wrong but my "basic common sense" tells me thats not the case. Every e juice manufacturer does not have identical amounts of these substances in their juices , it can vary widely from being sky high like "Five Pawns" or considerably lower but at this point it's a guess.
Dr F did say many of the juices had levels that may not have been through the roof but were beyond what most consider safe. Now if i had a choice between continuing to smoke or vape juice that contained diketones i would vape juice with diketones but when you have a choice of with diketones or without , easy choice for me.
Nope, level 1 trauma center team based on fiction said a minor fixed airway obstruction due to flavorings would be chalked up to adult onset asthma, and you would have to push pretty hard to get it looked into further.
You've never gone hoofing.... It's not bad, just gotta make sure the horse doesn't kick ya when you go in for a sniff
At least supply one reputable & relevant link to support anything you've said.
So far it's been anecdotal, take my word for it, supposition.
So far it's been anecdotal, take my word for it, supposition.
The ones that get me are the (non)-expert members that say <In My Opinion>
Based on What?
I'm still waiting on the Lung biopsies, the Dead Rats from studies. Actual Scientific Facts.
Facts are what matters, not assumption or fear Mongering.
Go figure, we sit around debating and arguing while they get out and Build a Wall made of Crap that will stop us dead in our tracks.
{I} <that little centered line......That is BT and the anti's going right up the middle while Vapers split
Me, I DIY and Have choices
The ones that get me are the (non)-expert members that say <In My Opinion>
Based on What?
I'm still waiting on the Lung biopsies, the Dead Rats from studies. Actual Scientific Facts.
Facts are what matters, not assumption or fear Mongering.
Go figure, we sit around debating and arguing while they get out and Build a Wall made of Crap that will stop us dead in our tracks.
{I} <that little centered line......That is BT and the anti's going right up the middle while Vapers split
Me, I DIY and Have choices
Well maybe it was the fact that he changed to a ipv 2.5 .3 ohm 60w, well maybe it could be if there was such a thing as an ipv 2.5 ...........
I wonder how much American Lung Association or National Institute of Health gives to Harvard per year?
That I don't know, but we do know that Harvard is (or at least was) in bed with Big Pharma.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/business/03medschool.html?_r=2
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In reply to post #188
Not that the comment was directed at me but i can easily answer why (non experts) say (imo) . It's because what they say "is their opinion" and nobody here is an expert on this topic thats why , pretty simple really .
Do you really expect to see posts that start out with " listen up everybody , what i say is 100% factual so don't even try to argue with me because i am a certified expert " , i don't think so.
I bet you would of responded with " the ones that get me are these "so called experts" that think they know all the facts" lol.
All of this stuff is based on "opinions" and "speculation" , there will not be any hard facts for many years to come for obvious reasons which happens to be the overwhelming majority of vapors haven't even been vaping two full years yet.
My "basic common sense" tells me that if vaping e juice with diketone's causes permanent lung tissue scarring which is not reversible that's something that i should probably avoid .
But wait , there is no factual data that proves lung tissue scarring by diketones will shorten your lifespan , that is true but i'm not one who has to see scientific proof (especially when its not available this early in the game) but i'll keep requesting it anyway .
I'll play it safe and avoid vaping e juice with diketones , it is available after all . It seems to me (not referring to anyone in particular) that some people will continue to insist that diketones are nothing to worry about for the sole reason of someone else telling them that they should avoid it lol.
Like parents tell their kids , don't do this , it's bad for you , of course the kid rebells and will do it more than ever out of spite . A big reason i avoid kids at all costs by the way .
Not that the comment was directed at me but i can easily answer why (non experts) say (imo) . It's because what they say "is their opinion" and nobody here is an expert on this topic thats why , pretty simple really .
Do you really expect to see posts that start out with " listen up everybody , what i say is 100% factual so don't even try to argue with me because i am a certified expert " , i don't think so.
I bet you would of responded with " the ones that get me are these "so called experts" that think they know all the facts" lol.
All of this stuff is based on "opinions" and "speculation" , there will not be any hard facts for many years to come for obvious reasons which happens to be the overwhelming majority of vapors haven't even been vaping two full years yet.
My "basic common sense" tells me that if vaping e juice with diketone's causes permanent lung tissue scarring which is not reversible that's something that i should probably avoid .
But wait , there is no factual data that proves lung tissue scarring by diketones will shorten your lifespan , that is true but i'm not one who has to see scientific proof (especially when its not available this early in the game) but i'll keep requesting it anyway .
I'll play it safe and avoid vaping e juice with diketones , it is available after all . It seems to me (not referring to anyone in particular) that some people will continue to insist that diketones are nothing to worry about for the sole reason of someone else telling them that they should avoid it lol.
Like parents tell their kids , don't do this , it's bad for you , of course the kid rebells and will do it more than ever out of spite . A big reason i avoid kids at all costs by the way .
You'd be hard-pressed to get any researcher or doctor to give any kind of unequivocal statement on anything, even with hard data in-hand. I don't mind when someone here prefaces a statement with "in my opinion", for at least they are putting it in the proper context.
The ones that get me are the (non)-expert members that say <In My Opinion>
Based on What?
I'm still waiting on the Lung biopsies, the Dead Rats from studies. Actual Scientific Facts.
Facts are what matters, not assumption or fear Mongering.
I normally do not either, but some opinions are so off the wall or out of the blue they make absolutely no sense. Those just plain amaze me.
Some times it can be nothing more Than getting so passionately wrapped you that one types a thought..........without thought, then hits post and moves on.
NOT Targeting, but just borrowing to reference:
Just the part in RED okay. Popcorn Lung hit the fan before Vaping got off the ground good. 2007(?)ish. That is Not a Short time in our advanced Technical era. We are nearing the 10 year mark.
Forgetting e-cigs - A Diacetyl implication was made in industry. Studies should have, But were NOT, immediately started. To this Day little real study is being done as to its effect.(Actual, not implied)
Another: We haven't Had 20-30 years to see results like smokers have.
What? Anyone near my age would realize, compared to today, we had Flint rocks and Clubs for tools. A Stethoscope and Thermometer for diagnostics and not a lot more.
Not long ago DNA testing took several Months, minimum. Today, results can be had in less than a week. Hmmmmm.....DNA did not get simpler, equipment got better.
If we lived in a condition of 20-30 years ago, I would Agree - We Don't.
I Say it. You Say I said it. Someone else says you said I said it.
Soon everyone is saying it....................even if it is Wrong.
* I am not defending any aspect of Our Vaping I am expressing a need for Clarity.*
I hope this made some since.I'm not really trying to single anyone out or offend anyone. Simply thinking we need to perhaps put more thought to what we are expressing.
We are a window to the World where Vaping is concerned.
Yes, I know I am as bad as anyone else. I am trying to work on it.
I get what you're throwin' down.
I'm one of those odd fellows that tries very hard to respect everyone's opinions, even when to my reasoning they're totally illogical. I just get that I'll never change their mind about it by trying to prove how wrong they are - they have to do it for themselves.
I understand everybody's hesitation to not want to believe that Vaping is bad for you and I myself would like to think that Vaping is atleast 50% better than smoking. However, let's not all make judgement against certain studies that find certain chemicals that are proven to be bad for our lungs. We all want to believe that Vaping is a better alternative to smoking and I'm sure it is. I appreciate Harvard and others taking the time to do the studies so that we all don't just fool ourselves into thinking that Vaping is 100% risk free. I understand some people thinking it's all a bunch of money driven garbage that these studies are being made so that the government can find a way to tax Vaping and regulate it just the same. The same can be said about the studies out there saying that Vaping is safe. Let's all be real with ourselves tho. A lot of us started Vaping because of health concerns from smoking. We want to believe so bad that our bodies are recuperating from many years of smoking all without fully giving up nicotine. When I first heard of Vaping I thought to myself. 'Wait, if Vaping is breathing water vapor into my lungs, wouldn't that cause pneumonia (fluid in the lungs)' hmm I thought. Well I decided it was worth the risk to switch after my father died of lung cancer from being a 35 year smoker. I will say that since I switched to Vaping my overall health has improved. I can breath a little better. However, I still have doubts about how well my body is improving overall. Look, Vaping has become a multi billion dollar industry just like smoking. There are a lot of people on each side of the argument driving the campaign that it's better/worse for you than smoking because of how much money is at stake. I can't say for sure who is right and only time and a bunch of research will tell us which is the case. Let's just temper our expectations! Let these studies take there course and take them for what they are worth. Its a judgment call. But let's not let our want for Vaping to be a "Miracle Alternative" to smoking fog our judgement. I'm almost positive Vaping isn't "good" for us. Although, I do believe it is somewhat better than smoking cigarettes. the lungs are meant to breath in oxygen and oxygen only. Are lungs are built to sweep out the bad particles in the air. But who knows if the Cilia (the tubular "sweepers" in the lungs) are being affected by Vaping. The verdict is still out.
The overall biggest issues I have with this study are that:
1) it was published without contextual relationship of the hazard level comparative to other exposure risks whatsoever;
2) that it became media-storm fodder for that very lack of contextual relation; and
3) their summary has some bending of the results that, while supported by the data they gathered, are presented in a way to sensationalize the results.
I'm reminded of the "saccharine used in diet soda is a carcinogen" incident back in the 70's. And yup, saccharine has causal links to cancer if you were to ingest the equivalent of 600 cans of diet soda a day, for years and years and years; that was the 'little fact' that was contextually left out of the report. But until that information was generally known and understood, the incident managed to nearly kill the diet soda lines and actually did cause a few of them to cease being made.
You can also find just as many articles that say Vaping is a 100% safe alternative to smoking. And of course those are driven by the people making the real money off of us vapers. As with TONS of phamasutical Drugs. They hit the market as the next big thing that will save your life. So thousands of people put there trust in it and a doctor prescribes it. A few years later it's PROVEN that this so called drug was the cause of the death or severe medical problem that the person obtained after taking it.It ends up causing the person more problems than if they wouldn't have done anything at all to begin with. Lawsuits ensued. I'm not saying that Vaping is either good or bad and my hope is that it's a great alternative!!!! I myself just refuse to jump on either bandwagon until I know the facts. I'm still Vaping. But let's all just remember that when cigarettes first hit the "market" they were marketed to curve hunger so you could lose weight. We know that they curve hunger be we now know that they can and will kill you in the long term. Same as Vaping. Marketed as a safer alternative to smoking but we just haven't had the time to test them for sure to say what issues they cause the human body if any at all. Time will tell!!! Let's all just pray we like what we here and we don't end up being the "lab rats" in the end.
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