Harvard Eliquid Study Today

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CleoPhoenix

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I think it's going to take quite a bit of time to pass before it's obvious to most people , i just think with the huge increase in most peoples juice consumption due to sub ohm vaping and continuing to vape these juices that contain diketones it's just a matter of time before serious health consequences reveal themselves .

Of course i can be wrong but my "basic common sense" tells me thats not the case. Every e juice manufacturer does not have identical amounts of these substances in their juices , it can vary widely from being sky high like "Five Pawns" or considerably lower but at this point it's a guess.

Dr F did say many of the juices had levels that may not have been through the roof but were beyond what most consider safe. Now if i had a choice between continuing to smoke or vape juice that contained diketones i would vape juice with diketones but when you have a choice of with diketones or without , easy choice for me.

After blowing through pages and pages of acronyms, link switch a roos, "I know it all" posts, "No you don't" posts, finger pointing, and lawsuits...this post made the most sense to me. I want vaping to stay but I want to vape safely (or as safely as possible while we learn the facts).
 

beckdg

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My take on it is: if something does not employ scientific method - then something is not real science.

Pretty short description of scientific method is here: Introduction to the Scientific Method

I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

... What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.

We can see that vapology (as well as dietology, global warmingology, politology) are not real sciences.

If science is not yet "real science" it does not mean it should be thrown away. It usually means that it is still underdeveloped and is in a stage of gathering primitive information. For example: I have found something new. I want to know what happens if I kick it: will it roll away, will it squeak, or will it bite my leg off. After being dismissed from emergency room I can publish results and be happy that I put my small pebble into foundation of some future theory.
Problems with this "science" of topic...

Theory is just that because

Animal testing isn't 100% linear/accurate when transfered to human usage

Theory is based on variables not indicative of usage patterns (not a diketone factory for example)

Direct correlation testing is deemed inhumane or unethical... the only reliable source... human intake

Severe overdosing to induce greatest possible threat

Etc.

The science has to be useful, reliable, directly correlated, variably isolated and because of limitations of what's considered ethical... flexible.

The experimentation and testing is going to happen. Whether it be administered and overseen by scientific professionals or a mass movement of self medicators.

Unfortunately, where science is stifled (human biology) from finding complete truths, law isn't. And law doesn't find complete truths. Just lawyer and plaintiff monies.

Medicine HAS to start observing and recording on large scale databases.

Mapping/graphing and comparative analysis software could be very useful in narrowing specifically risk factors down to tenths and hundredths of a percent just by comparing notes and adding/deleting categories, tweeking how the data is input, etc.

Every patient
Every physician, doctor, specialist, surgion
Every visit
Every relevant detail learned

Tapatyped
 

VNeil

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After blowing through pages and pages of acronyms, link switch a roos, "I know it all" posts, "No you don't" posts, finger pointing, and lawsuits...this post made the most sense to me. I want vaping to stay but I want to vape safely (or as safely as possible while we learn the facts).

This is what apparently "made the most sense" to you:

"it's just a matter of time before serious health consequences reveal themselves ."

In fact, there is not a shred of evidence that that is so. That is an opinion based on propaganda, In fact, that is exactly the message that the recent news reports want to deliver. You need to step back and try to understand how you have been propagandized, by having that message delivered over and over and over. Not just from news media propaganda but even most members here believe this, and repeat it over and over, in some form, without one shred of evidence. In fact, it is impossible here to distinguish those deliberately spreading this propaganda from the victims that then endlessly repeat it themselves.

This despite the fact that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that neither diketones nor anything else in eLiquids will be harmful at all.
 

VNeil

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Actually, in order to make the claim of "100.0000000000%" it IS necessary. You see that number has several more zeros in it than the number one billion. It therefore asserts a level of certainty requiring exactly that.


I'm sure some have been done. But how many, and were they diligently looking for the somewhat subtle difference between BO and COPD?

Oh, and BTW, what is the causative agent in COPD? Have you considered the possibility that the diketones present in cigarette smoke may play a role in COPD?
@Rossam, the medical community is convinced that smoking is not related to BO. If some researcher successfully linked BO to smoking, he would probably get a Nobel Prize for it. It would certainly put him at the top of his field for making such a connection. You are quibbling with me because you cannot deal with the overwhelming facts of the matter.

Do you really believe you are smarter than all of them? This conversation has reached the level of the absurd, as always.

I can make the claim of 100.000000% because THERE IS NOT A SINGLE DOCUMENTED CASE OF BO IN ANY OF THE LIVING BILLION SMOKERS OR ANY OF THE DEAD ONES. Except, of course, the smokers that also work in certain dusty environments known to be causitive of BO. Yet, somehow, BO was identified in that tiny population of popcorn workers, most of whom were smokers. You simply refuse to accept facts, logic and reasoning. That is the power of propaganda, and you are either intentionally spreading that propaganda or you are an unwitting victim, endlessly repeating absurd claims because the facts don't fit the politics.

Is your argument really reduced to the number of zeroes I used? I take that as a compliment because you cannot argue with the facts I present. You can only attack the messenger.
 

VNeil

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The ATS has been well aware of the disease in fact naming it, (Flavorings-related fixed obstructive disease) usually presents with a non-productive cough and the subsequent development of exertional shortness of breath, but some workers show no symptoms at all. These asymptomatic workers may only be identified by abnormal findings on screening spirometry. Onset of disease is usually gradual, but disease progression in a matter of months has been identified. Symptoms generally persist while away from work and are often attributed to other common conditions such as asthma, allergic rhinitis, acute or chronic bronchitis, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), pneumonia, or other infectious processes. The gradual onset of disease and the persistence of symptoms when away from work make it difficult for both workers and clinicians to recognize this as a work related condition.
And it's important to note that that disease presents itself in a few months to a few years, where smoking requires decades. Because it is a very different problem with a very different cause. The only connection between smoking and BO, or diketones and smoking related diseases, is pure speculation aimed at arriving at a predefined conclusion. IOW propaganda.
 

VNeil

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I'm sure some have been done. But how many, and were they diligently looking for the somewhat subtle difference between BO and COPD?
I'm sure "some" were not diligently looking. But your argument requires that NONE were looking diligently. Including the numerous autopsies done by medical research institutions and medical schools. That not one pathologist was interested in getting a Nobel Prize by finding a new, major link in smoking related diseases.

How many diligent pathologists do we need to find ONE SINGLE case of BO in the millions of autopsies done each year by tens of thousands of pathologists? We only need ONE.

Am I the only one that clearly understands the absurdity of your argument?

Your argument is the equivalent of flipping a legitimate coin one million times, coming up heads each time. Your argument is statistically impossible.
 
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Alien Traveler

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Problems with this "science" of topic...

Theory is just that because

Animal testing isn't 100% linear/accurate when transfered to human usage

Theory is based on variables not indicative of usage patterns (not a diketone factory for example)

Direct correlation testing is deemed inhumane or unethical... the only reliable source... human intake

Severe overdosing to induce greatest possible threat

Etc.

The science has to be useful, reliable, directly correlated, variably isolated and because of limitations of what's considered ethical... flexible.

The experimentation and testing is going to happen. Whether it be administered and overseen by scientific professionals or a mass movement of self medicators.

Unfortunately, where science is stifled (human biology) from finding complete truths, law isn't. And law doesn't find complete truths. Just lawyer and plaintiff monies.

Medicine HAS to start observing and recording on large scale databases.

Mapping/graphing and comparative analysis software could be very useful in narrowing specifically risk factors down to tenths and hundredths of a percent just by comparing notes and adding/deleting categories, tweeking how the data is input, etc.

Every patient
Every physician, doctor, specialist, surgion
Every visit
Every relevant detail learned

Tapatyped
Thanks for explaining my point of view in more detail.
 
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Rossum

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millions of autopsies done each year
Why do I find it hard to believe that "millions" of autopsies are done every year, on smokers who were previously diagnosed with COPD and then died of it? Who pays for this? In the US, only about 5% of people who die after age 65 become the subjects of an autopsy.

Sorry, but your "100.0000000000% level of certainty is too dang high. If you'd said your level of certainty is in the 90% range, I might not argue with you, but numbers, even more than words, mean things.
 

sparkky1

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And it's important to note that that disease presents itself in a few months to a few years, where smoking requires decades. Because it is a very different problem with a very different cause. The only connection between smoking and BO, or diketones and smoking related diseases, is pure speculation aimed at arriving at a predefined conclusion. IOW propaganda.

2,3-Butanedione (cas 431-03-8) msds download - Guidechem.com
sec 4.2 Butyric acid (cas 107-92-6) msds download - Guidechem.com
And do the hazards look much different to you ?
Both of these are in cigarettes, both are in ejuice, one is a diketone one is not
 
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VNeil

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Why do I find it hard to believe that "millions" of autopsies are done every year, on smokers who were previously diagnosed with COPD and then died of it? Who pays for this? In the US, only about 5% of people who die after age 65 become the subjects of an autopsy.

Sorry, but your "100.0000000000% level of certainty is too dang high. If you'd said your level of certainty is in the 90% range, I might not argue with you, but numbers, even more than words, mean things.
You misrepresent what I said. I said "One billion people have tested diacetyl inhalation for their entire adult lifetime and have a 100.0000000000% null result.". That is a simple statement of FACT by virtue that NOT ONE CASE OF BO IS KNOWN BY US TO HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN SMOKERS, except the rare cases reported with known associations to BO (all very dusty industrial environments). That has nothing to with "my certainty". If you want to dispute my 100% number, please link to cases of BO found within the smoking population with no known industrial link. If you cannot provide those links then you must agree with my 100% number because it remains a statement of fact.

Let's run the numbers... in the USA alone there are about 40 million smokers (1). The overall death rate in the general population is around 0.8% (3). The death rate among smokers should be higher or the idea that smoking takes years off your life is a total lie. So we will be conservative. On a quick google I see an overall autopsy rate of 8.5% (2) but I'll use your 5% so you don't waste time chiseling numbers.

So we have 40,000,0000 * 0.008 * 0.05 lungs that are autopsied. That is 16,000 smoker's lungs PER YEAR. The link between diacetyl and popcorn workers has been known for over 10 years now. In the past ten years 160,000 smoker's lungs have been autopsied.

Now, at this point you have to decide what the incident rate might be, and that is difficult because the known incident rate is 0%. Note that I avoided decimal places in order to minimize the opportunity for you to pick nits with my writing style, having failed to argue this based on any facts.

If it is 1% then that leaves 1600 (ETA: BO infested) autopsied lungs. The incident rate among popcorn workers, and particularly popcorn mixers was far higher than 1% but I'm not going to spend time looking up those numbers. Maybe someone else can chime in. But for the sake of argument, let's use 1%.

Now, if the general USA population during the last 10 years has averaged 300 million, and the average death rate is 0.8% and the autopsy rate is 5% (note my source of 8+%) then that leaves us with about 120,000 autopsies a year. I figure the average pathologist might do 2 two autopsies a day, including preparing the written report. That's about 500 per year. That leaves us at least 240 people doing autopsies in the USA alone. It's probably higher but I'm being conservative here.

This suggests that those 160,000 autopsies were spread out thinly among a huge pool of pathologists. At least hundreds. Yet not a single one of those pathologists was aware of the increasing interest in diacetyl and the possible link to smoking. Or none of them was able to somehow discern the difference between BO and smoking related COPD despite the fact that it was easily done in a pool of a couple hundred popcorn workers. None of those BO infested lungs got autopsied by a medical institution seeking to train pathologists or doing basic mortality research.

The USA has about 4.2% of the world's population. And about 4% of the world's smokers. So you could easily multiply my USA estimates by 25 and get 16,000 * 25 = 400,000 smoker's lungs being autopsied each year, and 4 MILLION autopsied lungs in the past decade. You would have to make additional estimates of worldwide autopsy rates. But no matter how low the multiplier, it only increases the pool of lungs. And if you want to severely downplay the worldwide numbers you have to get into some very USA-centric thinking that we are the only people on earth capable and interested in autopsies.

How many times do you need to flip a coin, and come up heads every time, to equal those odds?

You are making increasingly unbelievable claims, plus simply resorting to attacking my writing style, because no matter how you slice the numbers or adjust them, the evidence that diacetyl is unrelated to smoking disease is simply overwhelming. I can't even believe we are having this discussion. It is surreal.

How long do we have to go back and forth with you attacking my writing style and making ever more absurdly speculative claims before we can come to the conclusion that if smokers were getting BO we would know it? How long do we have to go back and forth before you accept the conclusion of the medical community that BO is unrelated to smoking?

And finally, I am very curious of your motives. Why do you persist in increasingly silly speculations and criticisms in the face of overwhelming facts? I have my opinion but I will keep my counsel on that.

1) CDC - Fact Sheet - Adult Cigarette Smoking in the United States - Smoking & Tobacco Use

2) Medscape: Medscape Access

3) FastStats
 
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Rossum

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Rossum

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You misrepresent what I said. I said "One billion people have tested diacetyl inhalation for their entire adult lifetime and have a 100.0000000000% null result.". That is a simple statement of FACT by virtue that NOT ONE CASE OF BO IS KNOWN BY US TO HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN SMOKERS, except the rare cases reported with known associations to BO (all very dusty industrial environments). That has nothing to with "my certainty". If you want to dispute my 100% number, please link to cases of BO found within the smoking population with no known industrial link. If you cannot provide those links then you must agree with my 100% number because it remains a statement of fact.

Let's run the numbers... in the USA alone there are about 40 million smokers (1). The overall death rate in the general population is around 0.8% (3). The death rate among smokers should be higher or the idea that smoking takes years off your life is a total lie. So we will be conservative. On a quick google I see an overall autopsy rate of 8.5% (2) but I'll use your 5% so you don't waste time chiseling numbers.

So we have 40,000,0000 * 0.008 * 0.05 lungs that are autopsied. That is 16,000 smoker's lungs PER YEAR. The link between diacetyl and popcorn workers has been known for over 10 years now. In the past ten years 160,000 smoker's lungs have been autopsied.

Now, at this point you have to decide what the incident rate might be, and that is difficult because the known incident rate is 0%. Note that I avoided decimal places in order to minimize the opportunity for you to pick nits with my writing style, having failed to argue this based on any facts.

If it is 1% then that leaves 1600 (ETA: BO infested) autopsied lungs. The incident rate among popcorn workers, and particularly popcorn mixers was far higher than 1% but I'm not going to spend time looking up those numbers. Maybe someone else can chime in. But for the sake of argument, let's use 1%.

Now, if the general USA population during the last 10 years has averaged 300 million, and the average death rate is 0.8% and the autopsy rate is 5% (note my source of 8+%) then that leaves us with about 120,000 autopsies a year. I figure the average pathologist might do 2 two autopsies a day, including preparing the written report. That's about 500 per year. That leaves us at least 240 people doing autopsies in the USA alone. It's probably higher but I'm being conservative here.

This suggests that those 160,000 autopsies were spread out thinly among a huge pool of pathologists. At least hundreds. Yet not a single one of those pathologists was aware of the increasing interest in diacetyl and the possible link to smoking. Or none of them was able to somehow discern the difference between BO and smoking related COPD despite the fact that it was easily done in a pool of a couple hundred popcorn workers. None of those BO infested lungs got autopsied by a medical institution seeking to train pathologists or doing basic mortality research.

The USA has about 4.2% of the world's population. And about 4% of the world's smokers. So you could easily multiply my USA estimates by 25 and get 16,000 * 25 = 400,000 smoker's lungs being autopsied each year, and 4 MILLION autopsied lungs in the past decade. You would have to make additional estimates of worldwide autopsy rates. But no matter how low the multiplier, it only increases the pool of lungs. And if you want to severely downplay the worldwide numbers you have to get into some very USA-centric thinking that we are the only people on earth capable and interested in autopsies.

How many times do you need to flip a coin, and come up heads every time, to equal those odds?

You are making increasingly unbelievable claims, plus simply resorting to attacking my writing style, because no matter how you slice the numbers or adjust them, the evidence that diacetyl is unrelated to smoking disease is simply overwhelming. I can't even believe we are having this discussion. It is surreal.

How long do we have to go back and forth with you attacking my writing style and making ever more absurdly speculative claims before we can come to the conclusion that if smokers were getting BO we would know it? How long do we have to go back and forth before you accept the conclusion of the medical community that BO is unrelated to smoking?

And finally, I am very curious of your motives. Why do you persist in increasingly silly speculations and criticisms in the face of overwhelming facts? I have my opinion but I will keep my counsel on that.

1) CDC - Fact Sheet - Adult Cigarette Smoking in the United States - Smoking & Tobacco Use

2) Medscape: Medscape Access

3) FastStats
I am not attacking your writing style. I am questioning the level of confidence you express when you assert that diketones in cigarette smoke are harmless, and thereby conclude that they must also be harmless in e-juice.
 

VNeil

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I am not attacking your writing style. I am questioning the level of confidence you express when you assert that diketones in cigarette smoke are harmless, and thereby conclude that they must also be harmless in e-juice.
I have not rendered my level of confidence. In fact I studiously avoided it. I have merely stated the FACTS. Which I think stand by themselves. We are each free to form a confidence level based on ZERO reported cases among a million living smokers, and a million or more smoker's lungs surely autopsied worldwide just in the past 10 years when diketones have been on the radar screen.

If your confidence is not 100%, or as close to 100% as is possible to get, you have to question the BASIS for your lesser confidence. If you are a critical thinker you will consider the possibility that your hesitance is due to the fact that you have been propagandized by a lie, told over and over, and repeated endlessly even on these forums.

There are few Ultimate Truths int he world. I am the first to say that. But these numbers are as close to an Ultimate Truth as I've ever seen, about anything. The evidence is simply unusually overwhelming.

And remember, we are not arguing about how many cases have been reported and if those cases represent some sort of statistical certainty. Those arguing that diketones injure smokers are arguing that zero is not zero. That is a very tough argument to make, with any credibility at all.

And why do you persist in calling my statements of facts as we know them "my assertions"? Assertions can be challenged. NO ONE HAS CHALLENGED ANY FACT I'VE LAID OUT HERE. They have only attacked the messenger via his writing style, and and tried to chip decimal places away from 100% and Zero.
 

VNeil

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Both are in certain flavor profiles of e-juice, but neither is universally used in all e-juice.

One of the quite explicitly states, "Toxic if inhaled" while the other does not. Guess which one is which?
MSDS sheets are not written by scientists. They are primarily written by lawyers.
 

sparkky1

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It should be emphasized that scarring of the respiratory bronchioles or even alveolar ducts requires that one assumption be made about the donor lung - that it is normal when harvested. In fact, many donor lungs are from cigarette smokers and show evidence of smokers (respiratory) bronchiolitis with fibrosis of the alveolar ducts and airways. This needs to be factored when a diagnosis of OB is considered. Be certain to compare the current biopsy to previous ones, especially the first after transplant where OB is rarely seen.
bronchiolitis obliterans
 

VNeil

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2,3-Butanedione (cas 431-03-8) msds download - Guidechem.com
sec 4.2 Butyric acid (cas 107-92-6) msds download - Guidechem.com
And do the hazards look much different to you ?
Both of these are in cigarettes, both are in ejuice, one is a diketone one is not
@sparkky1 - If you can support your claim that cigarettes contain butyric acid I'd like to see a link. It is a critical piece of the eJuice puzzle, at least for me. I did some googling but could not come up with a source.
 

skoony

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Why do I find it hard to believe that "millions" of autopsies are done every year, on smokers who were previously diagnosed with COPD and then died of it? Who pays for this? In the US, only about 5% of people who die after age 65 become the subjects of an autopsy.
Not all smokers are paupers on the government dole. There are plenty of smokers who
have either very good insurance or the financial resources to have biopsies done which
frequently happens for many reasons. One would think with the political turmoil that
surrounded cigarettes and now vaping that the anti do anything folks would have found
it by now. Or more likely made something up. Don't fret though,there's always the future
to look forward too.
Regards
Mike
 

sparkky1

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