Harvard Eliquid Study Today
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Well, I was thinking more along the lines of implementing term limits.
But hey, whatever works...
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of implementing term limits.
But hey, whatever works...
Oh, ok, we can try that first. But if that fails rocket launcher sheep.
If rocket launcher sheep is on my next ballot, he's getting my vote. Send him to infiltrate behind enemy lines. Best reconnaissance mission ever
Tapatyped
Tapatyped
No these are people who merely want an excuse to go back to smoking. The article stated nothing negative for those who do not vape diketone liquids..the focus was on diketone liquids and had nothing whatsoever to do with those who do not vape them or do not vape flavors at all. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read that article and figure out that anyone who does not vape those flavors with diketones are not facing the potential risk being discussed in the article. Anyone who reads anything more into that article beyond the discussion of inhaling diketones and therefore goes back to smoking is just looking for a reason to go back to smoking. There are diketone free flavorings and the option to vape flavorless.
What we know is that diketones have posed a problem in other industries when inhaled and we do not know how that translates for inhaling them through vaping...that is what we know Jman. That is enough to alert vapers that there may be potential risk vaping them.
Very wrong diagram. Extremely misleading.
"Harvard study worst offender" - it is value for 1 ml of juice. Current vaper easily vapes 20+ ml/day, so this value should be multiplied by 20. Result is close to smoking.
So: with wrong juice a vaper can consume as much of diacetyl as a smoker.
Is it dangerous? May be not. I do not know. But I would not tell other people it is "100 times better than smoking" in terms of diacetyl consumption.
Actually a typical daily intake of a typical eJuice *does* contain +about 100 times less diacetyl than a typical PAD smoker.
The typical user of the eCigs included in the Harvard study does NOT vape 20 of those eCigs a day. More like one, with an estimated life of 200-400 puffs. And I know from discussions here that 200-400 puffs (eta: per day) is not atypical. So it was not misleading. I can and will argue that you are misleading by suggesting that the "typical vaper" out in the wild consumes 20ml per day. That 20ml per day vaper is usually discussed as at the extremes. When did that become "typical"????
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Farsalinos assumes 5ml per day.
Even if you quadrupled DrF's assumptions to 20ml per day it would still be under 1000 micro grams.
1 cigarette assumes 335.9 x 20 per day= 6718 micro grams.
If you're vaping 20ml per day I'd think your first worry would be VG / acrolein.
With the high temps & high % Vg being used today the Vg decomposition to acrolein ( which occurs before the boiling point of 290c/ 554f ) would be through the roof compared to when those initial studies were done many years ago using the new and amazingly powerful ego 3.2v batteries & 2+ ohm delivery devices.
Even if you quadrupled DrF's assumptions to 20ml per day it would still be under 1000 micro grams.
1 cigarette assumes 335.9 x 20 per day= 6718 micro grams.
If you're vaping 20ml per day I'd think your first worry would be VG / acrolein.
With the high temps & high % Vg being used today the Vg decomposition to acrolein ( which occurs before the boiling point of 290c/ 554f ) would be through the roof compared to when those initial studies were done many years ago using the new and amazingly powerful ego 3.2v batteries & 2+ ohm delivery devices.
So you're saying the CloudsBro folks will be the real guinea pigs?
That's okay with me because I'm tired of being the guinea pig.
That's okay with me because I'm tired of being the guinea pig.
Harvard study: Peach Schnapps has 239 ug/ml * 20 = 4780 ug/day.
Pretty close to smoker. And I am sure it is not the worst juice on vaping market.
Those who vape wrong juice (rich custard, or whatever)? Yes. Hope in years to come they report us that diacetyl is not as bad as it was portrayed.So you're saying the CloudsBro folks will be the real guinea pigs?
That's okay with me because I'm tired of being the guinea pig.
Why are you trying to discredit that chart based on the single "worst" juice out of 51? Why are you not using average or mean diketone content????
Earth's average temperature does not show which closes to choose for Alaska or for India.
Average temperature per hospital does not show how to treat individual patients.
Does it mean I want to discredit average temperature?
EDIT: A bit more on averages. Average smoker will not get lung cancer. Does it mean there is no danger of lung cancer for smokers?
I got you covered on a couple different compounds, bro.So you're saying the CloudsBro folks will be the real guinea pigs?
That's okay with me because I'm tired of being the guinea pig.
Get at me... Oh. Wait. Wrong thread.
Tapatyped
Are you saying you did not try to discredit that chart? Your words...
"Very wrong diagram. Extremely misleading."
We're making progress. You are owning up to you statement. Now explain why only a comparison to about the most extreme vaping discussed here (20ml per day) is acceptable to you, and any other vaping style, no matter how common out in the world at large, is unacceptable. Do you consider yourself the Final Arbitor in all vaping comparisons?
But this isn't the first issue facing eCigs and plausibly isn't the last. So, someone like you, who's more or less convinced there is a significant problem with inhaling diketones at the levels that eLiquid products provide, could perhaps straighten out (according to your view) with people you directly interact with and who might have questions that go beyond the article. Me, I'd be telling them they are inhaling far more diketones via smoking and even there we haven't seen any known cases of actual harm, specifically tied to diketones.
Then there's the people who likely think there are more dangers to come / be reported on. You and I can't answer that (now) for them. So, better to go with the danger they do know than the one they don't, is how I'm sure they reconcile the return to smoking.
As a dual using person, I can understand why go back given the anti-vaping rhetoric that is around and that even some vapers naively accept as gospel.
This be the gospel of which I speak. We also know it has been a non-issue in all forms of smoking/vaping. That is what we know DeAnna.
I vape 1 to 2 ml a day. While perhaps not representative of people on this forum, I'm thinking a few scientific studies where hundreds of thousands of vapers are surveyed, I wouldn't be seen as unique. I'm thinking it is around 50/50 in terms of those who vape say 3ml or less and those who vape more than 3ml daily. I think the 20ml a day person or even 15+ ml, is equivalent to all those people that smoked 4+ packs a day, or IOW, a very small number of people.
While Dr. F. has the non-scientific assertion of "should be removed" belonging to his position, he also has scientific assertion that vaping 1 ml a day of diketone laced liquid (up to a limit) is "safe."
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