Harvard Eliquid Study Today

[Jman8]

Read two lines down..

I would say all of (material) science is inference. It is rare that a respectable scientific type would use the words "fact" in relation to scientific data. It is mostly to all based on inductive reasoning, and then understood by laypeople as 'fact.'

The diketone issue facing vaping currently is based on supposition or speculation. Please provide those definitions so it is understood within this discussion.

@VNeil 's responses are based on inferences and have basis in what we commonly understand as 'facts' - i.e. that no smoker or vaper has yet been diagnosed with B.O. due to their smoking/vaping. Perhaps one day that won't be a fact. Up to this moment in time, it resembles fact in the way we generally use that term.

 

[VNeil]

Read two lines down..

One of my facts: Not one of the billion plus current, former or dead smokers has ever been diagnosed with BO. Except of course those that work in those dust laden industrial environments associated with BO. Despite the fact that cigs contain far more diketones than almost any conceivable vaping profile.

That is a statement of fact that no one has disputed. I have never suggested, for example, that that proves a negative, that it is impossible to get a lung related disease by inhaling diketones while smoking. That would be a conclusion. I leave that to the readers here to form that conclusion, or not.

In fact, the mere mentioning of those inconvenient facts, without adding any conclusions, sets certain people off.

If you believe my statement here is not fact, then discuss it in detail, please don't play games with your dictionary.

 

[Asbestos4004]

Has anyone disputed the facts as I have stated them? When they do I will no longer call them facts. Until then they are undisputed facts.

Herb ignoring them is not disputing them, that is just a religious dogma of his, as I recently pointed out, and as he so blatantly acknowledges.

I'm neither pro or anti diketones. I believe the eliquid companies need to let customers know what's in their juice and the Vapers should decide for themselves. I vape custards that I'm certain aren't diketone free. I diy and have been reducing overall flavoring percentages. I'm OK with that....for me.

That being said, with the information we already have regarding diketones, its ridiculous to scream "they're safe!!!" to anyone who will listen. There's no long term data to prove your claims and there's no long term data to prove they're dangerous in the manner in which we use them.

You're probably capable of making a decent discussion for your side, however your arrogance and stubbornness make you very hard to take seriously. Believing in what you're saying is one thing....assuming its fact because you believe it is .....well, that's silly. Talking down to everyone..... that's silly too.

I generally like what you post in other threads...its a shame you feel the need to go so radical in these. Your opinions and the way you share them regarding this topic are radical .... and they're opinions. Not facts.

 

[Jman8]

One of my facts: Not one of the billion plus current, former or dead smokers has ever been diagnosed with BO. Except of course those that work in those dust laden industrial environments associated with BO. Despite the fact that cigs contain far more diketones than almost any conceivable vaping profile.

That is a statement of fact that no one has disputed. I have never suggested, for example, that that proves a negative, that it is impossible to get a lung related disease by inhaling diketones while smoking. That would be a conclusion. I leave that to the readers here to form that conclusion, or not.

In fact, the mere mentioning of those inconvenient facts, without adding any conclusions, sets certain people off.

If you believe my statement here is not fact, then discuss it in detail, please don't play games with your dictionary.

I don't necessarily see this as 'factual' myself, but then again there are a whole (lot) of things people would take as 'fact' that I'd dispute. Different standards, for different folks.

I see these points VNeil is making as very strong, well reasoned inferences that have everything to do with the discussion and with what Dr. F. told us in his original study. It has very little to do with Dr. F.'s non-scientific assertion of "should be removed" or what the dictionary would rightfully call Dr. F.'s opinion.

Now, we are at the semantic level of discussing this issue cause the item(s) VNeil has brought up are so overwhelming (IMO) that you can see the anti-diketone crowd deferring to the whole principle of FUD to gain any traction going forward. Great! Guess who else does that with regards to vaping, and what we know about this product that is under regulated and not yet taxed, like smokes are?

 

[Douggro]

One of my facts: Not one of the billion plus current, former or dead smokers has ever been diagnosed with BO. Except of course those that work in those dust laden industrial environments associated with BO.

No, you're drawing an inference from that which supports your hypothesis. Doesn't prove anything, nor does it disprove anything either.
You're operating on an assumption that of the tens and tens of thousands of autopsies done on smokers that a pathologist was actually looking for BO as a causative agent of death or had done the tissue studies to look for it. Show us that data set. The numbers will either back up your inference or they won't. Your statements of "fact" are conclusions you've drawn from inference without definitive data collection and study. While there certainly may be validity to them, it does not make them indisputable, because people certainly are disputing those claims.

I'm not trying to pick on you or anyone in particular - I'm just standing up for actual good, factual and repeatable good science.

 

[Douggro]

And never, ever get me started on what "reality" is.

 

[Jman8]

I'm just standing up for actual good, factual and repeatable good science.

What would be an example of this as it relates to vaping or smoking? Good luck!

 

[VNeil]

No, you're drawing an inference from that which supports your hypothesis. Doesn't prove anything, nor does it disprove anything either.
You're operating on an assumption that of the tens and tens of thousands of autopsies done on smokers that a pathologist was actually looking for BO as a causative agent of death or had done the tissue studies to look for it. Show us that data set. The numbers will either back up your inference or they won't. Your statements of "fact" are conclusions you've drawn from inference without definitive data collection and study. While there certainly may be validity to them, it does not make them indisputable, because people certainly are disputing those claims.

I'm not trying to pick on you or anyone in particular - I'm just standing up for actual good, factual and repeatable good science.

I did NOT repeat NOT infer what you suggest. Go back and read what I said. Without reading anything else into it

 

[Mazinny]

Has anyone disputed the facts as I have stated them? When they do I will no longer call them facts. Until then they are undisputed facts.

I had to go back a few pages to find a post that you presented as "fact" (my response in italics ) :

The facts are very simple:

All known agents of BO show up within two years or less and ALL involve heavy concentrations of dust born agents. There are a number of different agents but the common denominator is quite clear: dusty industrial environments

Absolutely not true. BO symptoms have manifested in as little as eighteen months after exposure in the work place to as long as ten years or more. The link to "dust" is the first i have heard. There are many different causes for O.B ( and most not related to flavorings btw ) but i haven't seen it being linked to dust even once ( outside of ECF that is )

There are NO KNOWN cases of BO originating outside of dusty environments

Clearly false. "The disease can be caused by breathing in irritant fumes, such as chlorine, ammonia, oxides of nitrogen or sulfur dioxide. Diacetyl, a chemical used to provide butter flavor in many foods, has also been suspected of causing bronchiolitis obliterans in workers who manufacture it or mix it into foods, such as butter-flavored popcorn. Bronchiolitis obliterans also can result from respiratory infections, a connective tissue disorder such as rheumatoid arthritis, a medication reaction, and after a bone marrow, lung or heart-lung transplant. Also, the disease may be idiopathic (without a known cause)."

ONE BILLION smokers have confirmed the above

Not sure if you know what "confirmation " means, but It's true that i haven't seen a link between smoking and B.O, if that's what you mean. Btw diacetyl exposure is implicated in more than one type of lung disease, particularly obstructive lung disease, and smoking cigarettes is a leading cause of obstructive lung disease.


NINE MILLION vapers just in the USA and surely over a hundred million worldwide have confirmed the same.

While this confirms nothing, you are correct in that vaping hasn't been linked to B.O.


There are very few ingested or inhaled substances that have been "field tested" by such a large but well defined control group. Therefore, this is as close to an Ultimate Truth as is possible.

Not even sure what this means.

As I pointed out earlier, oddly enough, the safest, most tested flavoring used in eJuice is Diacetyl. All the others, including the replacements, are more along the lines of Ignorance Is Bliss. Including Acetoin, AP, and the Butyric Acid now being used to replace those diketones.

Now this is absolute nonsense. There are hundreds of different chemicals in the food flavorings we use in our liquids. While it may be true that eliquids have been tested for diacetyl presence more than other chemicals, it's a complete non-sequitor to conclude that it is therefore the safest. Btw, AP is not a replacement for diketones as you stated, AP is a diketone , with a very similar risk profile to diacetyl and is much more common in eliquid than diacetyl, since most flavor manufacturers have removed diacetyl from their flavorings.

(I think it was in this thread that a member pointed out that Butyric Acid (BA) is listed, at least by Phillip Morris, as an ingredient in cigs, but the amounts were minute, between 0.001 and 0.0001%. I calculated somewhere less than 10 micrograms/cig, verses 334 micrograms per cig of Diacetyl. Although I have not seen numbers, I would assume that BA is now included in some "Diketone Free" juices in the same concentrations as the diketones they replaced, which could be as much as 1000 micrograms/ml? )

Butyric Acid is a lung irritant, but i have not seen it noted anywhere that it destroys lung tissue, as diacetyl has been shown to do. It is used in very very small amounts in creams and custards, since it doesn't take much for it to taste like vomit.

I suggest you read a little more and write a little less about a topic which you clearly are lacking knowledge. There are scientists who have been researching this topic for ten years or more, who didn't feel comfortable enough to publish a declarative statement of facts as you have. Unbelievable really !

 

[skoony]

No study currently available addresses the issues that need to be addressed and nobody should draw any definite conclusions from any of it .

There are hundreds of studies saying vaping is all good. Ignore them please.

It's got to be all the of other bad chemicals that cause smoking related deaths around the world EXCEPT diketones even though diketones are one of the bad chemicals that are known to directly cause respiratory issues .

They cause respiratory issues in industrial settings and only in industrial settings.
Issues when used in candles? NO.
Issues in aromatherapy? NO.
Issues with vaping? NO.
Issues when you can use supposed potential harm as an argument to make us look like
troglodytes and uncaring oaf's. YES.
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

Absolutely not true. BO symptoms have manifested in as little as eighteen months after exposure in the work place to as long as ten years or more. The link to "dust" is the first i have heard. There are many different causes for O.B ( and most not related to flavorings btw ) but i haven't seen it being linked to dust even once ( outside of ECF that is )

quote me the study done at the plants that specifically points to what form of diacetyl
is causing harm and why.Liquid,paste or powder.
i have found 2 independent sources citing the dust.Not the vapor.
Regards
Mike

 

[Mazinny]

quote me the study done at the plants that specifically points to what form of diacetyl
is causing harm and why.Liquid,paste or powder.
i have found 2 independent sources citing the dust.Not the vapor.
Regards
Mike

Since you are the one making the claim that dust is causing B.O., the burden of proof is on you to show documentation stating this. I am not making the distinction, you are ! I showed you an article that clearly stated "liquid" is used, and you came back with some nonsense about coffee grinding ! Now show me one study that implicated "dust" as the cause for B.O or that makes a distinction between different forms of diacetyl ( powder or liquid ) as far as potential causes of lung disease.

 

[Douggro]

What would be an example of this as it relates to vaping or smoking? Good luck!

That, sir, is the Ultimate Booby Prize of this whole thing. I know it happens, but generally not when there's huge amounts of money at stake.

 

[Douggro]

I did NOT repeat NOT infer what you suggest. Go back and read what I said. Without reading anything else into it

I've (tried to) read what you've posted. I think I get the gist of your argument. Fine, spiffy and wonderful. You're just so convinced of your position that you attack anyone that goes against it. That, in the kindest terms, is ignorance. I have no problem reevaluating my position on anything and say I was wrong because I believe there are very few absolutes in life and I prefer to live with a mind open to possibilities rather than be restricted by limited points of view. I was merely trying to suggest that you employ the same critical thinking to your argument that you are trying to bash everyone over head with about theirs.

You have your point of view and you are absolutely and totally entitled to it. Which makes you absolutely the same as every other human being on this planet, operating with a point of view that is uniquely theirs and theirs alone. No one else has yours, just you. Others may share common bits and pieces of it, but never the whole thing or they'd be, well, you.

 

[Mazinny]

Oh, and I did not make up the idea that BO is a dust-borne disease. Johns Hopkins did...

Pneumoconiosis | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library

"Pneumoconiosis is one of a group of interstitial lung disease caused by breathing in certain kinds of dust particles that damage your lungs."

"Because you are likely to encounter these dusts only in the workplace, pneumoconiosis is called an occupational lung disease."

"The disease appears in different forms, depending on the type of dust you inhale. "

So if you want to argue with my assessment, don't argue with me, argue with the best of the medical profession at John's Hopkins. And thanks, as always, to @skoony for this link, and similar, that put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Wow, i almost missed this little gem of a post. In support of your argument that BO is a " dust-borne disease " ( is Skoony the originator of this theory ? ) you link an article from Johns Hopkins talking about Pneumoconiosis , a different disease . Do you even read these links before you post them ?

 

[herb]

There are hundreds of studies saying vaping is all good. Ignore them please.


They cause respiratory issues in industrial settings and only in industrial settings.
Issues when used in candles? NO.
Issues in aromatherapy? NO.
Issues with vaping? NO.
Issues when you can use supposed potential harm as an argument to make us look like
troglodytes and uncaring oaf's. YES.
Regards
Mike

There are ZERO studies that say with certainty that vaping is 100% safe , is vaping better than smoking i don't think anyone can deny that but completely safe , don't think so .

As to your second comment , you know very well that cannot be proven , so your saying it's a fact that diketones (without question) have absolutely nothing to do and are not a contributor in any way to any disease where smoking is to blame , OK man , hopeless, truly hopeless.

 

[Rossum]

@Alien Traveler - And yes, it is often discussed here that B&M's appeal mostly to cloud chasers. In fact I see a lot of complaints that B&Ms generally do not cater to people looking to simply quit smoking. So yes, all the anecdotal evidence here suggests they cater to extremists, hobbyists.

Hmm, how many thousands of B&Ms are there now? And how many customers does it take to keep each one in business? I guess there must be a LOT of cloud-chasers after all.

 

[herb]

I'm with @Jman8... I know few if any people actually hauling around O2 tanks. You sure you're not just making this stuff up as you go along?

One more time... BO has a totally different timeline character than smoking related illnesses. You are playing the "it must be bad for you" card, despite the fact that you are swimming upstream against the entire medical establishment on this. Anything is possible, no one can prove a negative but you are arguing totally in the absence of evidence.

You have already acknowledged you have a firm opinion, a certainty, despite the fact that you claim to have no facts available to form that opinion. And despite the fact that refuse to acknowledge simple numerical factgs I provide, just because they do not fit your world view. I call that Religious Dogma and I don't argue matters of religion. This discussion has long left the realm of facts. I've said all I have to say and I'm out of this.

Sorry bud , but what you say means nothing now , what you believed was so beyond ridiculous that you have zero credibility anymore , you were just given a dose of reality and your trying to stay afloat by treading water , your done, see ya .

Take Jman with you because he hasn't made sense since he joined ECF .

 

[Rossum]

So let me get this right LOL , you are saying that out of all the smoking related deaths around the world all of them must be caused by all the other chemicals in cigarettes EXCLUDING diketones .

In your mind DIKETONES would have to be the sole cause of illness and not just a contributor like all the other chemicals is that right , c, mon man .

That makes ZERO sense .

His reasoning also depends on the notion that BO is the only way that damage caused by diketones could possibly manifest itself in smokers.

 

[Racehorse]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjho7W3i_PJAhXI7CYKHRwhCIgQFggcMAA&url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/09/10/long-lived-smokers-may-be-a-biologically-distinct-group-with-an-extraordinary-gene-network/&usg=AFQjCNHmzcCwT6JwTE9WtgVHm29_Qt9Xqg&sig2=MCtzPaqcQkBOrom9xdbJWA&bvm=bv.110151844,d.eWE

hmmmm

crxess,

I don't doubt this article. I just finished eating dinner at a christmas party with a 91 year old woman who has never had an ache, pain, or health problem in her entire life. She doesn't even live what would be considered a "healthy life".

She loves what she does and even at 91 you can't slow her down. But she also got "luck of the draw"....the right genetic code. She is frail and looks like she would break in half, but she is like a "little general" in personality.

But she has also never been in a car accident, or had any major injuries, organ diseases, organs removed, major surgeries, autoimmune diseases, etc.

I have another friend who lives on coca cola and pop tarts ......and she's never had a health problem, and even more amazing, never even had a cavity and she's in her mid-60s.

I have always "flossed" and brushed.....even worked 2-3 jobs a few times in my life to afford the best dental maintenance and care.....and yet I keep needing root canals, gum surgery, etc.

Just as there are people who lay out in the sun and don't get any of those suspicious moles and/or skin-cancer precursors.

I think there is only a certain amount of things you can CONTROL.

I think the KEY is living a lifestyle that makes you feel good, vibrant and healthy. I personally could not do that smoking cigarettes.....it was taking a toll in very obvious ways.

But, IF smoking made me feel great, with no negative effect, I'd probably still be smoking.