Has anyone REALLY read the new regs, and I mean ALL of it.

Status
Not open for further replies.

inswva

Do you even squonk, bro?
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,728
18,508
I appreciate your enthusiasm and optimism OP but the regulations as written have been read and fully understood by advocacy groups, industry groups, and their respective legal representation. The impacts of the regulations have been widely published in easy to digest formats in numerous places.

You can cover that dog turd with sugar before you eat it but at the end of the day, you've still eaten a dog turd.
 

Robino1

Resting in Peace
ECF Veteran
Sep 7, 2012
27,447
110,403
Treasure Coast, Florida
I appreciate your enthusiasm and optimism OP but the regulations as written have been read and fully understood by advocacy groups, industry groups, and their respective legal representation. The impacts of the regulations have been widely published in easy to digest formats in numerous places.

You can coat that dog turd in sugar before you eat it but at the end of the day, you've still eaten a dog turd.
Bwahahahaha! Dog turd!

Not quite the comparison I would chose.... but okay. ROFL
 

DoctorJ

Account closed on request
ECF Veteran
Nov 27, 2012
786
1,220
  • Deleted by retired1
  • Reason: Inappropriate

Max-83

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 11, 2016
116
299
61
  • Deleted by retired1
  • Reason: Cleaning up

inswva

Do you even squonk, bro?
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,728
18,508

Take it easy. The regs as written are essentially a death sentence for vaping whether you understand them or not. Cherry picking parts of the regs and quoting them doesn't change the regs as a whole. Did you read the anything relating to predicate date, substantial equivalency, the burdensome and financially prohibitive nature of the PMTA process? It's not a rosy picture no matter how *you* choose to interpret it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tj99959

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,111
    39,568
    utah

    Ya know, we would all like to look at the bright side & be optimistic, but the reality is that the FDA wants vaping to fade into oblivion. The ONLY solution is litigation or legislation.

    So put the pressure on congress to clean up this mess!

    According to spokespersons for the FDA, the approval process can take up to 500 hours to complete at a cost of around $300,000 per product.

    Now I ask you, who in hell is going to pay $300,000 to get a $2 drip tip approved?
    Have any idea of how many components there are that make up a ProTank? Each of which would need approval.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    zoiDman

    My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Apr 16, 2010
    41,589
    1
    84,625
    So-Cal
    • Deleted by retired1
    • Reason: Knock it off

    gofishtx

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 24, 2014
    3,168
    7,089
    Tomball Texas
    I would tend to think that if the FDA wants to ban something within the USA borders they will do so regardless of the source.
    So can you not go to sites or forums in other countries such as UK Vapors. I do it all the time. It is hard to remove or ban websites from the entire internet. ECF will still be here, at least as long as Smokey Joe wants to keep the forum up and running and since he is in the UK.................Long Live Smokey Joe and ECF:hubba:
     

    gofishtx

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 24, 2014
    3,168
    7,089
    Tomball Texas
    • Deleted by retired1
    • Reason: Cleaning up

    MMW

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Oct 8, 2015
    3,661
    9,531
    47
    NH
    I appreciate your enthusiasm and optimism OP but the regulations as written have been read and fully understood by advocacy groups, industry groups, and their respective legal representation. The impacts of the regulations have been widely published in easy to digest formats in numerous places.

    You can cover that dog turd with sugar before you eat it but at the end of the day, you've still eaten a dog turd.
    2u4qxdc.jpg
    [/IMG]
    2u4qxdc.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    FishingBuffalo

    Senior Member
    ECF Veteran
    Mar 22, 2012
    274
    364
    Collinsville,TX
    FDA is not banning any vapor product, but want manufacturers to register their product through PMTA process to go to market (or our case stay in the market). Very important to support Cole/Bishop bill as it will keep current products on the market without the PMTA (Pre-Market Tobacco Application)
     

    YoursTruli

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    May 27, 2012
    4,406
    14,895
    Ohio
    I would think that since ECF is international it would not be under FDA regulation, so if you can't vape you can read about all the vaping in other countries,

    So can you not go to sites or forums in other countries such as UK Vapors. I do it all the time. It is hard to remove or ban websites from the entire internet. ECF will still be here, at least as long as Smokey Joe wants to keep the forum up and running and since he is in the UK.................Long Live Smokey Joe and ECF:hubba:

    I think the problem would be revenue. I have read where SJ/Oliver has said If there were little to no advertisers they would not be able to put the resources into running the site they have now without that revenue.
     

    YoursTruli

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    May 27, 2012
    4,406
    14,895
    Ohio
    @DoctorJ I get that you are upset, we are all upset about this and emotions are very running high, but, I think you need to realize if you are saying one thing while bunch of other people are saying the opposite (with documentation to back it up) you might need to take a step back and reevaluate your views. There really is no need to go off the deep edge, we are all in this together and I honestly do not believe anyone was trying to jump you personally, more just counter your point of view with the facts as we know them at this time.
     

    retired1

    Administrator
    Admin
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Apr 5, 2013
    51,149
    45,735
    Texas
    I think the problem would be revenue. I have read where SJ/Oliver has said If there were little to no advertisers they would not be able to put the resources into running the site they have now without that revenue.

    This is correct. However, we're always looking at different ways to bring in revenue to run the servers. :)
     
    Most of you know by now that the new regulations have come out and the document is 499 pages long. However, the last 50 or so pages are definitions, a list of laws and references used in the document. In actuality, MAYBE 100 pages pertain to e cigs specifically. But many of these pages are things we already knew were going to happen such as age limits, nicotine warnings, etc. They even talk about vending machines. I can't recall the last time I saw an operational cigarette vending machine; I thought they were outlawed years ago. Of course there is quite a bit of legal speak and a lot of the regs address issues such as keeping tobacco out of the hands of kids, environmental concerns, etc. This document not only addresses ecigs, it covers cigars, hookahs and roll your own cigarettes.

    It took a good 3-4 hours to read through the pertinent information on e cigs and another hour to cruise through the rest. The FDA lists comments and responses to certain aspects. Most of it, as I said, we already know. A lot of it is stuff we could care less about. There are even a few sections that made me chuckle, such as some items that are considered tobacco products such as wire, screwdrivers and lanyards because the are used specifically for tobacco product consumption. I knew the FDA was going to do some things we don't want to happen, however, to consider a screwdriver or a lanyard a tobacco product???

    This being said, the regulations are not as bad as many are making them out to be. A bit restrictive maybe, but it's not the end of vaping. The FDA even states, "This final deeming rule places some restrictions on the sale and distribution of tobacco products, such as minimum age restrictions, but it does not bar sales to individuals generally." Also, "FDA is not banning any category of tobacco product by issuing this final deeming rule." So for those that believe that vaping will cease to exist, the regulations even say it will.

    I went through and highlighted quite a few statements that give us hope that FDA is not going to totally turn our world upside down. There are even quite a few areas where they are open to new information and also helping smaller companies deal with the costs of "registering" their vaping goods so that big companies won't have an advantage. This is not the only place the FDA is offering to help us.

    Here are just a few of the more important passages pertaining to e cigs from the final ruling (which isn't written in stone as the FDA says they could change and amend (for the good) as information becomes available):
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Comment 26) Many comments stated that a requirement to prepare PMTAs for all of the many parts and components that go into some of the newly deemed tobacco products would create an effective ban of these products. (Response) The definition of a tobacco product includes components and parts, and these products are subject to the automatic provisions of the FD&C Act, including premarket authorization requirements. However, at this time, FDA intends to limit enforcement of the premarket authorization provisions to finished tobacco products. In this context, a finished tobacco product refers to a tobacco product, including all components and parts, sealed in final packaging intended for consumer use (e.g., filters or filter tubes sold separately to consumers or as part of kits). For example, an e-liquid sealed in final packaging that is to be sold or distributed to a consumer for use in a finished tobacco product will be subject to enforcement if it is on the market without authorization. In contrast, an e-liquid that is sold or distributed for further manufacturing into a finished ENDS product is not itself a finished tobacco product. At this time, FDA does not intend to enforce the premarket authorization requirements against such eliquids or other components and parts of newly deemed products that are sold or distributed solely for further manufacturing without a marketing order. (So hardware is not going to be as hard to come by as first believed)

    (Comment 161) Many comments expressed concern that Congress did not wish to effectively ban e-cigarettes (as they claimed would occur as a result of deeming these products), because such a ban violates section 907(d)(3) of the FD&C Act. They stated that if Congress wanted to ban them, they would have done so under their drug authority. (Response) FDA is not banning any category of tobacco product by issuing this final deeming rule.

    However, we recognize that the availability of alternatives to traditional tobacco flavors in some products (e.g., ENDS) may potentially help some adult users who are attempting to transition away from combusted products. Furthermore, at least some flavored combusted products are likely to be “grandfathered” and therefore would remain on the market regardless of the compliance period provided in the preamble. (The grandfather clause we hoped for. It might not be much, but it's a start)

    Further, CTP’s OCE will continue to assist small-scale tobacco product manufacturers in their submission of rotational warning plans for FDA approval and to provide a system to assist such businesses in navigating the regulatory requirements of FDA. FDA considers a "small-scale tobacco product manufacturer" to be a manufacturer of any regulated tobacco product that employs 150 or fewer full-time equivalent employees and has annual total revenues of $5,000,000 or less. (The little guys won't bear as much of the expense as many say)

    Until the FDA publishes a final guidance for each product category and to provide ENDS manufacturers a lengthier compliance period based on where they purport to fit within the risk continuum for nicotine-delivering products (e.g., Comment No. FDA-2014-N-0189-81859; Comment No. FDA-2014-N-0189-10852). In response to these comments, we note that nicotine use in any form is of particular concern for youth and pregnant women. On the other hand, some evidence suggests that ENDS may potentially promote transition away from combusted tobacco use among some current users and it is possible that there could be a public health benefit. (Did they say possible health benefit???)

    FDA intends to seek additional public comment and issue a rule or guidance to provide further clarification on assemblies of materials that are a "component or part" of a tobacco product because they are intended or reasonably expected to alter or affect the tobacco product's performance, composition, constituents, or characteristics or are intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of a tobacco product. (Our time for offering suggestions is NOT over. They still want our input!!!)

    (Comment 141) Many comments stated, but did not provide supporting data, that ecigarettes: (1) Are approximately 99 percent less hazardous than cigarettes; (2) are only consumed by smokers and former smokers who quit by switching to e-cigarettes; and (3) have not been found to create nicotine dependence in any nonsmoker. They also stated that there is no evidence that ingesting e-liquid leads to fatalities. (Response) As discussed throughout this document, FDA agrees that use of ENDS is likely less hazardous for an individual user than continued smoking of traditional cigarettes. (SEE, even the FDA recognizes that e cigs are "likely" less hazardous!!)

    (Comment 161) Many comments expressed concern that Congress did not wish to effectively ban e-cigarettes (as they claimed would occur as a result of deeming these products), because such a ban violates section 907(d)(3) of the FD&C Act. They stated that if Congress wanted to ban them, they would have done so under their drug authority. (Response) FDA is not banning any category of tobacco product by issuing this final deeming rule.

    (Comment 167) Many comments stated that the NPRM would ban virtually all of the eliquid products and premium vaporizers (including mods, tanks, and open systems) and other components or parts because manufacturers of such products would not have adequate resources to comply with the requirements of the law. (Response) FDA disagrees. FDA is not banning any tobacco product under this final rule. Rather, FDA is extending its authority to regulate such products under section 901 of the FD&C Act. Manufacturers of ENDS products were on notice that they could be considered FDA-regulated tobacco products since the enactment of the Tobacco Control Act and the issuance of the Sottera decision shortly thereafter. See section VIII.K for additional discussion regarding the Sottera case. Therefore, FDA disagrees with any comments referring to this rule as banning any categories of tobacco products. (Regulation NOT prohibition as so many have claimed)

    (Comment 203) One comment stated that alternative nicotine products, such as nicotine toothpicks, (Wait...what? Never heard of these LOL)

    (Comment 216) Many comments suggested that FDA include a ban on flavored tobacco products with this final rule. Other comments suggested that FDA continue to allow the sale of fruit or candy-flavored e-cigarettes, because they aid cigarette smokers in decreasing cigarette use and in smoking cessation. (Response) FDA is not banning flavored tobacco products with this final deeming rule. If additional evidence emerges that flavored ENDS make it more likely that smokers switch completely to ENDS, such evidence submitted as part of a PMTA would help support that application, as part of the analysis of whether the marketing of the product is appropriate for the protection of public health. (So we are not going to be stuck with plain tobacco, menthol and clove...thank goodness!)

    Somebody asked me in a previous post if I had "fell asleep at the wheel" when I said that the regulations weren't as bad as we thought. No I didn't, I was too busy actually reading the regs and taking notes!!!


    OP is spreading FUD. It's going to be a huge ban. Wake up and smell the coffee.

    ONE product got through a PMTA in the 25 years that the tobacco industry has been under guidance by the FDA. ALL vaping products not on the market in 2007 need to submit to the FDA a PMTA for each product and pass the review to keep a product on the market.

    Stand up and fight people! Stock up!
     

    crxess

    Grumpy Ole Man
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Sep 20, 2012
    24,438
    46,126
    71
    Williamsport Md
    Zeller has stated previously that when ecigs are deemed, then they can address flavors. The important part of the bolded above by me is the underlined. "At this time".

    Unfortunately you underlined the incorrect threat:
    products that are sold or distributed solely for further manufacturing without a marketing order.
    Which means Ingredients for Making completed E-liquids and/or Bulk E-liquids Not yet Packaged for Sale to Retail (55 Gallon Drums) :ohmy:
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread