Hello from Mexico

[El Gato Vapeador]

Hi everybody, I am a "dual" user from Mexico. I vape and smoke tobacco (not cigarettes) and very much enjoy both. vaping is ideal for everyday usage indoors and outdoors, there is no fire, no ashes and can be done anytime just pushing the mod button. Since I don't inhale I don't produce huge super-clouds, but that's OK, I don't look for these clouds. For most e-liquids the vapor is gentle and pleasant (for the vaper and for those around). I am thrilled by the fact that it practically leaves no trace, so the "second hand vapor" is not an issue. Pesky anti-smoking neurotics don't even know you vaped if they don't see the cloud. However, I also enjoy very much smoking a pipe or a good hand made cigar every 2 days. In fact, an e-cig is like a techno style pipe. Pipes or large cigars take a long time (up an hour) to finish and must be smoked in a relaxed manner. While the smoke has a nice smell (as opposed to cigarette smoke), it is a lot of smoke and it lingers a lot. So, I smoke tobacco at home, so I know I can take my time and do not have to worry about bothering anybody. Finally, the sale of e-cigs is illegal here in Mexico, though a lot of people vape and there are plenty of vape shops. Still, it should be legal, as it is pleasant and harmless (I've seen the scientific literature).

 

[Hitmetwice]

Welcome to the vape club ElGato.
Enjoyed and understood your story completely.
People in Canada (where I live) say it's illegal here too but it's not. It is just not approved by health Canada.
Have vapers been arrested in Mexico?
Have sellers?
What aspect is "illegal"?
Cheers.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

Welcome to the vape club ElGato.
Enjoyed and understood your story completely.
People in Canada (where I live) say it's illegal here too but it's not. It is just not approved by health Canada.
Have vapers been arrested in Mexico?
Have sellers?
What aspect is "illegal"?
Cheers.

Hi Hitmitwice, thanks for your welcoming. The situation here seems to be similar to what you describe in Canada. As far as I know vaping is not illegal: a cop cannot fine you for vaping in the street, but can fine you if you vape where smoking is banned (authorities do not distinguish between vaping and smoking). Vaping has been classified as a health hazard by "COFEPRIS", the Mexican equivalent of the FDA. This means that selling e-cigs is illegal, in the sense that you cannot register your vape shop officially as such. Theoretically, sellers or retailers caught by inspectors would be subject to fines and would have their shop closed. However, law enforcement in Mexico is very lax, so there are plenty of sellers of vaping stuff, physical shops and online. They open a shop or an internet site and do not declare they sell vaping stuff. Inspectors (if they come) are probably bribed.

The attitude of the "official" public health here in Mexico towards e-cigs is disgraceful. They ignore the health potential and simply parrot the fear mongering lies that come from the USA medical establishment (the e-cig section in web site of COFEPRIS is pathetic and ignorant). Corruption and lax enforcement of the law is the lesser evil when you face a stupid prohibitionist law decreed by narrow minded medical bureaucrats. However, while we can vape more or less freely, this situation is unstable and is not right: it should be legal to sell vaping stuff and vaping should not be equated to smoking.

 

[Hitmetwice]

Thank-you for the reply.
Yes it sounds pretty much like it is in most of Canada. Some provinces have restricted aspects of vaping by law. Others have not acted yet.
Ontario is no sales to minors only (so far).

I feel your disgrace with the situation
ElGato Vapeador. Cheers.

 

[Cheallaigh]

yes, vaping isn't illegal... but it is not legal for stores and vendors to sell the juices with nicotine. as hit said some of the provinces have been making laws... I was saddened when my native province of BC started using the banhammer a few months ago, not as badly as quebec though... the one I live in now, Ontario, so far isn't too bad. a guy I know, owns a chain of vape shops, he's refusing to make a website etc until the gov figures out what it is doing.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

At least in Canada (it seems) the legal situation is clear and open, here in Mexico it is not. It seems that the prohibition to sell vaping gear and e-liquids (with or without nicotine) does not come so much because of health concerns on vaping (which are misplaced and based on junk science), but because the regulatory process is costly and complicated, perhaps similar to that of the FDA model in the USA. Nevertheless, a lot of people are vaping, so it is becoming a large market.

 

[BrotherBob]

Hi everybody, I am a "dual" user from Mexico. I vape and smoke tobacco (not cigarettes) and very much enjoy both. Vaping is ideal for everyday usage indoors and outdoors, there is no fire, no ashes and can be done anytime just pushing the mod button. Since I don't inhale I don't produce huge super-clouds, but that's OK, I don't look for these clouds. For most e-liquids the vapor is gentle and pleasant (for the vaper and for those around). I am thrilled by the fact that it practically leaves no trace, so the "second hand vapor" is not an issue. Pesky anti-smoking neurotics don't even know you vaped if they don't see the cloud. However, I also enjoy very much smoking a pipe or a good hand made cigar every 2 days. In fact, an e-cig is like a techno style pipe. Pipes or large cigars take a long time (up an hour) to finish and must be smoked in a relaxed manner. While the smoke has a nice smell (as opposed to cigarette smoke), it is a lot of smoke and it lingers a lot. So, I smoke tobacco at home, so I know I can take my time and do not have to worry about bothering anybody. Finally, the sale of e-cigs is illegal here in Mexico, though a lot of people vape and there are plenty of vape shops. Still, it should be legal, as it is pleasant and harmless (I've seen the scientific literature).

Welcome and glad you joined. We seemed to agree.
Might like to read:
https://www.heartland.org/policy-documents/research-commentary-e-cigarette-smoking-bans

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

Thanks for the link BrotherBob. Bans on vaping in bars and restaurants have no medical basis. While the medical/scientific argument is important, it may not convince a lot (if not most) people who demand these bans. In my experience, these folks are either neurotic anti-smokers who can't stand anything that seems even remotely connected to smoking (even if proven harmless), or they defend vested interests of all sorts.

I had a look at the Medical Research section of the forum. There is one thread offering links of medical studies to download, but the links are disabled. It would be very handy to have a good (and easily accessible) data base of scientific/medical studies on vaping.

 

[Hitmetwice]

yes, vaping isn't illegal... but it is not legal for stores and vendors to sell the juices with nicotine. as hit said some of the provinces have been making laws... I was saddened when my native province of BC started using the banhammer a few months ago, not as badly as quebec though... the one I live in now, Ontario, so far isn't too bad. a guy I know, owns a chain of vape shops, he's refusing to make a website etc until the gov figures out what it is doing.

New BC rules... ECTA of Canada News Brief and Timeline

Ontario law is proper signage and no sales to minors only. (at this time) AFAIK.

Municipalities, towns and cities set their own bylaws(or not!)

The rules are not country wide or even province wide in some provinces.

 

[Hitmetwice]

I had a look at the Medical Research section of the forum. There is one thread offering links of medical studies to download, but the links are disabled. It would be very handy to have a good (and easily accessible) data base of scientific/medical studies on vaping.

The links are disabled because they link to flawed studies and junk science and fear mongering propaganda. ECF does not want to perpetuate it.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

New BC rules... ECTA of Canada News Brief and Timeline

Ontario law is proper signage and no sales to minors only. (at this time) AFAIK.

Municipalities, towns and cities set their own bylaws(or not!)

The rules are not country wide or even province wide in some provinces.

I find it amazing how restrictive and detailed these regulations are: like no display of gear, vaping safe "buffer zones" and restrictions on vaping for indoor testing. The notion of banning displays so that minors do not see the stuff is reminiscent of regulations on porno shops, which reveals how these health regulators see vaping as some sort of sin and their role as a moral crusade. Health regulations should be based on scientific evidence, or else they reduce to prejudice and violate human rights.

When regulations involve so many minutiae and are so tight and rigid, it is hard to comply with them and to enforce them. Does the public actually complies in full with these regulations? I doubt it. Vape shops in Mexico openly display the gear, you can vape inside as you sample the liquids and many costumer moms come with their kids. However, we are now in a sort of limbo without regulations. Perhaps future regulations will resemble those of Canada, but if they are so detailed and restrictive people are not likely to comply.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

The links are disabled because they link to flawed studies and junk science and fear mongering propaganda. ECF does not want to perpetuate it.

OK, but then you should either remove these links or (if kept) warn readers that they are junk. On the other hand, the public is always exposed to this junk science and fear mongering, so dissecting and refuting this disinformation is always beneficial. Anyway, just expressing my opinion.

 

[classwife]

ECF has huge Google Juice...we do not want to give garbage links any of that.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

By "Google Juice" do you mean visibility in Goggle?

 

[Tomasius74]

Hi Hitmitwice, thanks for your welcoming. The situation here seems to be similar to what you describe in Canada. As far as I know vaping is not illegal: a cop cannot fine you for vaping in the street, but can fine you if you vape where smoking is banned (authorities do not distinguish between vaping and smoking). Vaping has been classified as a health hazard by "COFEPRIS", the Mexican equivalent of the FDA. This means that selling e-cigs is illegal, in the sense that you cannot register your vape shop officially as such. Theoretically, sellers or retailers caught by inspectors would be subject to fines and would have their shop closed. However, law enforcement in Mexico is very lax, so there are plenty of sellers of vaping stuff, physical shops and online. They open a shop or an internet site and do not declare they sell vaping stuff. Inspectors (if they come) are probably bribed.

The attitude of the "official" public health here in Mexico towards e-cigs is disgraceful. They ignore the health potential and simply parrot the fear mongering lies that come from the USA medical establishment (the e-cig section in web site of COFEPRIS is pathetic and ignorant). Corruption and lax enforcement of the law is the lesser evil when you face a stupid prohibitionist law decreed by narrow minded medical bureaucrats. However, while we can vape more or less freely, this situation is unstable and is not right: it should be legal to sell vaping stuff and vaping should not be equated to smoking.

El Gato Vapeador, the situation in Mexico is absurd. The Tobacco Law does not regulate whatsoever electronic cigarettes and as I understand it they cannot be considered a tobacco product (Article 6, Section XIX), because they are not made with tobacco leafs and are not intended to be smoked, sucked, chewed or sniffed. At least I understand that smoking implies the emission of smoke, and smoke can only be produced by burning something.

I understand Cofepris banned them because section VI of the article 16 prohibits to trade, sell, distribute, exhibit, promote and manufacture any object that not being a tobacco product contains any of the "brand elements" or "any design" or "auditory signal" that identifies such object with a tobacco product.

So, If Cofepris has imposed sanctions under article 16 prohibition, they have already interpreted that ecigs are not a tobacco product. There are some news in the internet regarding a Supreme Court decision about the unconstitutionality of such article.

What I don't know is if there is any regulation regarding nicotine (as a substance).

I do think that our authorities attitude towards vaping is disgraceful, extremely poor and uninformed

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

El Gato Vapeador, the situation in Mexico is absurd. The Tobacco Law does not regulate whatsoever electronic cigarettes and as I understand it they cannot be considered a tobacco product (Article 6, Section XIX), because they are not made with tobacco leafs and are not intended to be smoked, sucked, chewed or sniffed. At least I understand that smoking implies the emission of smoke, and smoke can only be produced by burning something.

I understand Cofepris banned them because section VI of the article 16 prohibits to trade, sell, distribute, exhibit, promote and manufacture any object that not being a tobacco product contains any of the "brand elements" or "any design" or "auditory signal" that identifies such object with a tobacco product.

So, If Cofepris has imposed sanctions under article 16 prohibition, they have already interpreted that ecigs are not a tobacco product. There are some news in the internet regarding a Supreme Court decision about the unconstitutionality of such article.

What I don't know is if there is any regulation regarding nicotine (as a substance).

I do think that our authorities attitude towards vaping is disgraceful, extremely poor and uninformed

Hola Tomasius.

I was not aware of section VI of article 16. To be honest, I have not read the official COFEPRIS regulations, which as you say seem to be contradictory. I fully agree that the attitude of our public health authorities is disgraceful. I don't know how can we, vapers, contribute to change this. Also, besides the widespread ignorance of the medical establishment (partly because of the novelty of e-cigs) there are vested interests that oppose an enlightened health policy towards their usage.

I work at UNAM (National University for readers not familiar with Mexico) and have spoken with a few senior physicians individually. All were completely ignorant on e-cigs, thinking they were some sort of new type of cigarette. I should recognize they were patient enough to hear me explaining fact about them (how they work) and showing them medical literature that endorses health benefits for cigarettes smokers that switch to e-cigs (the report from the Royal College of Physicians of the UK). After the explanation, all accepted that there could be "possibly" a health benefit if e-cigs replaced normal tobacco cigarettes, but they would still recommend their prohibition or their regulation as strict as with normal cigarettes, at least (one said) as long as "we don't have sufficient evidence" (yet he dismissed the evidence I showed him from the report of the Royal College of Physicians). Unfortunately, like everywhere else, the prohibitionist impulse is very strong in "official medicine". Now, the doctors I talked to are academics, they are much more enlightened than the medical bureaucrats that run COFEPRIS. So, we cannot expect much from the latter.

On another note, I spoke to somebody who works as a tobacco retailer, selling all sorts of tobacco products including imported cigars and chewing tobacco. He told me that the main obstacle to legalize the trade of e-cigs is not some sort of "health concern", but a sort of "deeming" procedure similar to that of the FDA in the USA. As far as I understood from what he said, COFEPRIS sees e-cigs and vaping gear as a "generic" product (not as a collection of different products and brands and companies manufacturing them). To allow for their legal sale in Mexico COFEPRIS has to do some laboratory "tests" that are very expensive and must be paid by any company that wishes to introduce and sell them in Mexico. These tests act as a sort of "entrance exam" to the market and even if they are approved, COFEPRIS would not grant "exclusivity" (ie market monopoly) to the manufacturer that paid for them. So, according to this version, none of the manufacturers wants to pay this large amount of money just for entering the market without concessions that would give some advantage over competitors. Frankly, I don't believe this version. Likely, e-cig manufacturers who may have approached COFEPRIS sense there is a lot of very costly red tape not worth going through. Perhaps they take solace on the fact that e-cigs and vapor gear are already selling well in the market, illegally but without creating any security problem. The problem is (in my view) that this is not a stable nor desirable long term situation.

 

[Tomasius74]

Thank you El Gato Vapeador, very interesting!


I consider myself a libertarian and if scientists and physicians are not sure if vaping is safe because the lack of evidence, then it should not be forbidden it should be studied. Not knowing is not a good basis for a decision.


I have not found a serious vaping related website that states that vaping is absolutely healthy, it does have effects and health consequences, but I’m convinced it is a healthier choice or, if you prefer a less damaging one versus cigarettes.


I started vaping 3 months ago, just to see how it worked and hoping to be a dual user. I wanted to vape something at the office to avoid my several smoke-breaks. After 3 days, I wondered what would happen if I stopped buying cigarettes. I realized I could vape and avoid cigarettes and been doing that for 3 months after smoking for more that 25 years (2 pack per day for the last 2 or 3 years).


So prohibitionists and health-freaks can think whatever they want, I know that switching is possible, and also know that I do feel better.


I’m sure our government does not care if we smoke or not, they have their 160% tax on cigarettes and their 16% VAT, they want the money. Big tobacco wants their product-enslaved users and also wants to kill the actual industry in order to be the sole producers of electronic closed systems. Big pharma wants to sell their nicotine gums, patches and their pills (which have not prove to be a good way to quit smoking) because they have realized that they cannot compete with e-cigs.

 

[El Gato Vapeador]

Hi Tomasius.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also smoked cigarettes in the past, for 10 years between 1 and 2 packs a day. I smoked my last cigarette 25 years ago and switched entirely to smoking only cigars and pipes, without inhaling and in moderation (one pipe/cigar every 2 days). It was my personal effort in "harm reduction" at a time when something like e-cigs were not available. My cardio vascular condition vastly improved, so it was one of my best lifestyle decisions.

A year ago I started vaping not because I wanted to quit smoking my cigars and pipes (which I enormously enjoy), but because vaping is equally enjoyable but much more practical: you just press the button and vape as long as you want, you can keep the e-cig in your pocket when not vaping, there is no fire and no ash to get rid off, and the vapor dissipates very fast leaving no traces. The tobacco law in Mexico forbids smoking in our offices at UNAM ("espacios libres de humo"), but the law is not clear about vaping. So, I managed to get authorization to vape in my office because I argued that the e-cig vapor is not tobacco smoke ("no es humo, es vapor"). In fact, I put this argument in terms of the different physical and chemical properties of the smoke and the vapor. I can always find in many restaurants a quiet spot for a discreet vape and nobody notices. I could never do all this with my cigars.

You mention that you are convinced that there is some harm to your health in vaping. Less risky than smoking, but not zero risk. There is no substance (eaten, drunk or smoked) in nature that is totally absolutely risk-free. I have read a lot of the scientific literature on e-cigs and vapor. A good review of the literature is found in this link:

The Ultimate List of E-Cig Studies: Are E-Cigs Actually Safe? *Updated 2/16/14 – Vapex

A specially good reference is the article "Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks" by Igor Burstyn, that you can download in this link:

Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks

These are all "short term" studies because E-cigs are a new technology that has been used extensively for less than 10 years, which is not sufficient time for epidemiological studies on its long term health effects, but the same can be said of many new consumer products (cell phones), food (genetically modified) and many medications that are often released into the market after less than 5 years of study on laboratory animals.

We know that vaping has not produced health problems in vapers in their 10 year usage. Can we be 100% absolutely certain that zero (absolutely zero) long term decades long effects may arise? No we cannot, but on the basis of what is known I believe that we can rest reasonably assured that possible long term health risks from vaping are close to zero, or possibly close to long term health risks of eating ice cream or yogurt, more so if vaping without nicotine.

I am also a libertarian and completely despise the paternalistic and prohibitionist impulses of the "Public Health" medical establishment (doctors and regulators). I will keep vaping and smoking my cigars/pipes regardless of what they say and will fight to be able to vape and smoke LEGALLY in bars and restaurants (say, in separate rooms to avoid bothering non-smokers and non-vapers).

As you say, vaping is not only under attack by the prohibitionist and puritan "healthist" ideology of many doctors, but by powerful vested corporate interests. In fact, I would argue that the pharmaceutical industry is more to blame than the cigarette industry. Big Pharma knows that their patches and gums are rubbish, so they have more motivation to destroy the consumer vaping industry to be able to sell e-cigs as medication, not as a consumer product (they tried this and failed, but they keep trying because it means a lot of $$$$).