Help me understand

[Commie]

I apologize in case this has been covered somewhere before, I did not find the answer yet.

FDA and all kinds of states are lining up to tax or regulate e-cigs as "tobacco products". In most of the regulations I don't see them referring to e-cigs, but referring to tobacco products.

So, which of the following would be taxed?

prefilled cartos
Premixed juices and Liquid nicotine
PG and VG
Mods
Li-Ion and Li-Mn batteries
empty cartos, carto tanks and clearos
flashlights
Kanthal
cotton yarn

If I had to guess, they will tax premade liquid and filled cartos, possibly liquid nicotine. That would likely hurt people that are just switching to vaping, but not really veterans. A $10 bittle of liquid nic lasts me months. If it goes up to $20, it's not that big of a deal to me.
I don't see how they can reasonably regulate empty cartos and mods, or othewise "paraphenelia". But I'm sure they can go away with reason and still regulate it. But if it comes to that, there's always stuff to make mods and rebuild atomizers from. I would really giggle if they regulate cheese cloth.

So, if my assumption is correct, the regulations will not really hurt veteran vapers. They will just ensure that as few new people make the switch as possible. Which blows my mind.

 

[RVLT]

I think prefilled cartos and nic base are the only things that will be affected, everything else has other uses besides tobacco use or you can make the argument that they do. There not going to tax or ban kanthal, batteries, mesh, pg, vg etc.

I don't know if pg or vg base nic had or has any other uses besides vaping, but if it does it may not be taxed because the other uses don't involve vaping. However it is derived from tobacco so that will cause it to fall under regulation. I think regulation mostly has to do with intended use, that's why head shops can sell paraphernalia as long as they claim "it's for tobacco use".

Speaking of paraphernalia for tobacco use, wouldn't that claim make those products fall under the RYO regulation?

 

[Commie]

Thank you!

If that is the case though, I see it only as a bad thing for people looking to make the switch, and only those that have not found this forum. It can also be a bad thing for vendors whose primary income is from mixing liquids. If more people switch to DIY, those vendors will be hurting

If your monthly DIY bill goes from $15 to $20, that's not very noticeable.

 

[Fiamma]

...So, if my assumption is correct, the regulations will not really hurt veteran vapers. They will just ensure that as few new people make the switch as possible. Which blows my mind.

Yeah, you'll have yours, but all those people who might make the switch will be deprived of that choice. How many millions is that?

 

[Commie]

Yeah, you'll have yours, but all those people who might make the switch will be deprived of that choice. How many millions is that?

Well, my point was selfish, but not quite that selfish. The battieries and mods are not really tobacco products, so (per earlier in this thread) they should theoretically stay unregulated in a legal meaning of the word. The price on pre-mixed juice will be affected, but would likely still be comparable to price of analogs.

And even though I have a few bullet proof mods, I'd still like to think that I'll be able to buy other ones in the future.

 

[Lilkurty]

I will just start a home party "vaping" business. They already did it with Botox didn't they? Mixing mixers I'll call it for all of those that are interested in converting

 

[2coils]

So So many opinions.....everyone seems to have the answer!! I almost cant wait for the proposed regulations to go public. For one, people will finally understand what we are up against. Secondly, LET THE FIGHT BEGIN!! Obviuosly the prefight is important but it sucks swinging at the invisible man.

 

[2coils]

I apologize in case this has been covered somewhere before, I did not find the answer yet.

FDA and all kinds of states are lining up to tax or regulate e-cigs as "tobacco products". In most of the regulations I don't see them referring to e-cigs, but referring to tobacco products.

So, which of the following would be taxed?

prefilled cartos
Premixed juices and Liquid nicotine
PG and VG
Mods
Li-Ion and Li-Mn Batteries
empty cartos, carto tanks and clearos
flashlights
Kanthal
cotton yarn

If I had to guess, they will tax premade liquid and filled cartos, possibly liquid nicotine. That would likely hurt people that are just switching to vaping, but not really veterans. A $10 bittle of liquid nic lasts me months. If it goes up to $20, it's not that big of a deal to me.
I don't see how they can reasonably regulate empty cartos and mods, or othewise "paraphenelia". But I'm sure they can go away with reason and still regulate it. But if it comes to that, there's always stuff to make mods and rebuild atomizers from. I would really giggle if they regulate cheese cloth.

So, if my assumption is correct, the regulations will not really hurt veteran vapers. They will just ensure that as few new people make the switch as possible. Which blows my mind.

Glad to see another fellow vaper concerned. Expect the worse. This goes far beyond regulation for taxaction purposes. Myself and many others who are more versed in this area than me have painted a very poor picture. I am learning myself of all the terrible possibilities. Think about it....would happen if all internet sales were banned or restricted?? What would happen if they lowered the nic content in e-liquid making it less desireable to make the switch. what would happen if you can only buy tobacco flavored e-liquid. Then think about the other items you bring up. Truth is nobody knows. We need as many people to speak up and fight for our industry! Vetran vapers will have a much harder time getting nic if the FDA has its say!!

 

[patkin]

Somewhere on here there's a new (last two days) thread about one of the New England States (I think) proposing a Statewide 95% tax on ecig hardware. Its not just the Feds we have to be concerned about but each State is going to try to get in on the take.

 

[rolygate]

The big problem with vaping is the money. The money, that is, that everyone else will lose.

Smoking makes hundreds of billions of dollars for the government, for States, for the cigarette industry, and for the pharmaceutical industry (mainly in the form of the drug sales for treatment of sick smokers, a market which is probably 30 times the size of the smoking cessation drug market).

Ecigs would potentially hit this gravy train by 50% or more if left unchallenged; so you have a situation where the powerful and the rich are very angry and worried. They are going to do everything they can to either stop ecigs, or claw back some money somehow. Look who loses:

- Government takes a 50% hit in tobacco tax revenue. Ouch!

- States take a 50% hit on tobacco tax revenue. Some of them are near-bankrupt and desperately need that tobacco money to balance their books.

- The cigarette trade lose 50% of sales. Painful, but at least they knew this was coming: cigarette sales in the West are going to fall year on year anyway, partly as a result of black market tobacco as the tax is so high. In the UK, about 15 to 20% of tobacco sales are now black market (a pack of cigs is over $10 due to the tax) and that figure will grow every year. But: the tobacco industry can at least make alternative plans by getting into Snus, ecigs, dissolvables etc. They'll have to.

- The pharmaceutical industry will lose 50% from their sick smoker treatment drug market, which may be around $100bn a year. The $3bn market for smoking cessation (NRT and pschoactive drugs) would probably take a 75% hit as eventually too many people will find out about the 9 out of 10 failure rate and compare it to a far better product with a far better success rate (ecigs). Many other income channels will also be hit hard, since if 50% of smokers move to ecigs and Snus, public health improves to such an extent that many drug sales are reduced.

So all in all you have many rich and powerful interests who are desperate to kill off ecigs. They own the media and government agencies such as the FDA. On our side we have the voice of the community (the size of which has shocked the opposition as they would never have believed it possible), plus the funds of the ecig trade to mount legal challenges.

We are outgunned because they hold the power, but we have some good plays we can make. Above all we need more numbers, to make this a voting issue.

 

[Commie]

Somewhere on here there's a new (last two days) thread about one of the New England States (I think) proposing a Statewide 95% tax on ecig hardware. Its not just the Feds we have to be concerned about but each State is going to try to get in on the take.

What I don't understand (or maybe the states don't) is how in the world will they define "ecig hardware". Flashlights? Batteries? Cotton yarn?

 

[Petrodus]

The big problem with vaping is the money. The money, that is, that everyone else will lose.

Smoking makes hundreds of billions of dollars for the government, for States, for the cigarette industry, and for the pharmaceutical industry (mainly in the form of the drug sales for treatment of sick smokers, a market which is probably 30 times the size of the smoking cessation drug market).

Ecigs would potentially hit this gravy train by 50% or more if left unchallenged; so you have a situation where the powerful and the rich are very angry and worried. They are going to do everything they can to either stop ecigs, or claw back some money somehow. Look who loses:

- Government takes a 50% hit in tobacco tax revenue. Ouch!

- States take a 50% hit on tobacco tax revenue. Some of them are near-bankrupt and desperately need that tobacco money to balance their books.

- The cigarette trade lose 50% of sales. Painful, but at least they knew this was coming: cigarette sales in the West are going to fall year on year anyway, partly as a result of black market tobacco as the tax is so high. In the UK, about 15 to 20% of tobacco sales are now black market (a pack of cigs is over $10 due to the tax) and that figure will grow every year. But: the tobacco industry can at least make alternative plans by getting into Snus, ecigs, dissolvables etc. They'll have to.

- The pharmaceutical industry will lose 50% from their sick smoker treatment drug market, which may be around $100bn a year. The $3bn market for smoking cessation (NRT and pschoactive drugs) would probably take a 75% hit as eventually too many people will find out about the 9 out of 10 failure rate and compare it to a far better product with a far better success rate (ecigs). Many other income channels will also be hit hard, since if 50% of smokers move to ecigs and Snus, public health improves to such an extent that many drug sales are reduced.

So all in all you have many rich and powerful interests who are desperate to kill off ecigs. They own the media and government agencies such as the FDA. On our side we have the voice of the community (the size of which has shocked the opposition as they would never have believed it possible), plus the funds of the ecig trade to mount legal challenges.

We are outgunned because they hold the power, but we have some good plays we can make. Above all we need more numbers, to make this a voting issue.

WOW ... another fantastic post by Rolygate
Bookmarked for future reference.
I often bookmark posts because I can quickly answer questions
or make a point in discussion...by posting a link to what was posted in the past.

Rolygate is one of our core members,
and when he talks ... I'm listening and taking notes !!

 

[patkin]

What I don't understand (or maybe the states don't) is how in the world will they define "ecig hardware". Flashlights? Batteries? Cotton yarn?

I don't mean to sound flip... truly... but they'll define it any way they choose to get the most revenue. Let's take tires for instance... Fed luxury/excise tax... rubber is used in multiple products as is every other material that goes into one but, if its designed to be put on a vehicle whether its a bike or a tractor (hardly a luxury), you'll pay exhorbitant tax. They may tax only if you buy from an ecig dealer... I don't know... but what I do know is they're masters of corruption (business suit, street smart, thugs) and can get reeeaaal creative and logic will not prevail so there's really no way to rationally determine what they'll do other than they will do whatever it takes to bleed the most money from the consumer/tax payer.

 

[pmos69]

Looking at the proposed EU Tobacco directive, I would say it's mainly an attack on alternative nicotine delivery systems.
Tobacco cigarettes will continue to be legal and the changes proposed over them seem to be "light", or already enforced by most member states.
Ex: Banning exotic flavorings on cigarettes? How many people will that affect?

The proposed measures about electronic cigarettes, on the other hand, may be similar to an effective ban.
Even Snus are under attack, despite the previous Swedish exception, with the extension of the flavorings ban to them, which seems overly abusive.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

On our side we have the voice of the community (the size of which has shocked the opposition as they would never have believed it possible), plus the funds of the ecig trade to mount legal challenges.

Are there any current speculations about the size and constituency (part-time/full-time vapers) of the community and its rate of growth?

 

[Paulette]

Are there any current speculations about the size and constituency (part-time/full-time vapers) of the community and its rate of growth?

This may help you some, but not an exact answer to your question. Quote from:
Electronic cigarettes growing in popularity


A study released the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that about 21% of adults who smoke traditional cigarettes had used e-cigarettes in 2011, compared with about 10 percent in 2010.

Overall, about six percent of all adults have tried e-cigarettes, with estimates nearly doubling from 2010. The study is the first to report changes in awareness and use of e-cigarettes between 2010 and 2011.

 

[DrMA]

It'll be hard, if not impossible for FDA to regulate batteries and Kanthal as tobacco products. The same goes for the flavorings (food grade), PG, VG, even nic base, all of which have extensive, well-established alternative uses. My guess is advanced vapers who DIY their juice, build their own battery mods and use RBAs will have no trouble from the new rules. Most likely, the new rules will create a headache for new vapers as well as substantial difficulty and a financial hurdle for people who might enter the vaping world. It'll probably affect purpose-built commercial battery mods, peripheral hardware (attys, cartos, tanks), and pre-mixed juice.

 

[sonicdsl]

Are there any current speculations about the size and constituency (part-time/full-time vapers) of the community and its rate of growth?

I saw an estimate recently (from CASAA I believe) that the number was upwards of 2.5 million in 2012.

 

[Riffy]

How would people buy nic juice if they banned internet & mail order sales? I mean there really aren't that many B&M stores around. The few that do exist would go under from this anyways right? Or am I just reading all this wrong?

 

[Fiamma]

How would people buy nic juice if they banned internet & mail order sales? I mean there really aren't that many B&M stores around. The few that do exist would go under from this anyways right? Or am I just reading all this wrong?

They don't care if you can't buy juice. Internet and mail order sales would be hard for them to GRAB THE TAX FROM.

Whether the B&M's can stay open in this kind of legislative climate is unknown. No juice sampling no trying out of an e cig, seems it would be hard to sell products in that kind of environment.