Here's why the FDA is doing this?

[markarich159]

Mossman, not to denegrate your post as everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, your data on the Pharmaceutical Industries profit compared to the rest of industry is WAY off. The top 10 Pharm Manufactureres made about 80 billion in net revenue in 2008. The top 3 Fortune 500 companies(Chevron, Walmart, and Exxon-Mobile) alone made over 70 billion in net revenue. Historically, Big Pharma posts relatively small profits compared to other Fortune 500 industries.

Also, and not to defend the US FDA because they are acting like Jackasses in the e-cig case, the USA has some of the most stringent drug marketing requirements in the entire world. It takes the average Pharmaceutical Company over 100 million dollars and 8-12 years of research to get a new drug(NME-New Molecular Entity) from the drawing board into the marketplace. There are pre-clinical animal phase tests required before human trials can start, then there are 3 phases of human trials before an NDA(new drug application) can even be filed to the FDA for approval.

I do agree in some cases politics enters the situation(as in the e-cig case) and this throws a serious monkeywrench in the works. Every once in awhile a bad drug does slip through the process, but that is the extreme exception rather then the rule. And when it does happen, post-marketing surveillance(a requirement of the dreaded FDA) catches almost all the baddies.

The reason that cures for cancer/AIDS etc.. haven't been found yet is because these diseases are MUCH more complex in their etiology then diseases that have been conquered in the past.

I for one would rather be living today with the FDA and Big Pharma, then 100 years ago without and dying of a bad case of Strep Throat at age 16.

And I am awake, also I'm a Summa Cum Laude Graduate of the oldest and one of the top Pharmacy Schools in the country. Before you go bashing someone elses profession/intelligence, you may want actually find out an iota about what your bashing. Also, cut the Alex Jones/ Bilderberg Group/ Brave New World conspiracy crap, if anyone wants to rant that 9/11 truther stuff , an e-cig forum is not the place.

I said at the beginnning of this post that it was a jumping off point for discussion, not a jumping off post to insult others.

 

[LiquidLove]

Mossman, That was one of the best posts I have read. I am in total agreement

+1000!

*worships*

 

[markarich159]

Mossman, That was one of the best posts I have read. I am in total agreement

+1000!

*worships*

Wow, now I really understand how Obama was able to get elected. Create enough "the sky is falling" psuedohysteria and everyone will believe. Hitler did say(actually his propaganda minister Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels), the bigger the lie, the more people would believe it. Also, a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.

 

[Superstargoddess]

Also, cut the Alex Jones/ Bilderberg Group/ Brave New World conspiracy crap...

Ooooh, you have read that book? I love Brave New World! I have some very strange views on that whole thing, and they probably aren't popular opinions! I have a copy of that book that is over 50 years old.

 

[markarich159]

Ooooh, you have read that book? I love Brave New World! I have some very strange views on that whole thing, and they probably aren't popular opinions! I have a copy of that book that is over 50 years old.

Nice, do you know if it's a 1st publishing(I think it was published 1st back in the early '30's). Yeah, GREAT book. I also like The Doors of Perception by Huxley.

 

[Superstargoddess]

Nice, do you know if it's a 1st publishing(I think it was published 1st back in the early '30's). Yeah, GREAT book. I also like The Doors of Perception by Huxley.

It isn't a first edition, unfortunately. It's a really small sized book, the pages are all yellow, I just love old stuff like that. I haven't read anything else by Huxley, but he was a genius. It's nice to see someone else here that knows his work! I almost think that sometimes what BNW says would almost be better than what is going on right now. Told you it wouldn't be a popular opinion! We can take that to private messages if you like.

 

[HighTech]

Yeah, GREAT book. I also like The Doors of Perception by Huxley.

Ditto.

 

[ramblingrose]

Yeah, GREAT book. I also like The Doors of Perception by Huxley.

and what a surprise to see references to them here!

 

[Bruce H]

"I for one would rather be living today with the FDA and Big Pharma, then 100 years ago without and dying of a bad case of Strep Throat at age 16."

I agree. But to deny the political influence is naive at best. And there have been more than just a few drugs that have hit the market that have been pulled.

My wife got a prescription for FenPhen. I was furiously researching it while she was trying to get a prescription. I found quite a bit in my search and presented all of the data to her. She subsequently never filled the prescription. Thank God.

My point, the FDA is not the end all be all and because of political/monetary reasons it's very difficult for me to trust them completely. As any other government entity.

 

[ramblingrose]

I did not know this until about 2 hours ago, but Phillip Morris is actually now a subsidiary of "The Altria Group"

Not in the way I think you're saying? Philip Morris Companies, Inc. was the original company. It owned various other companies outside of the tobacco industry. They didn't want to be seen purely as a tobacco company, and in 2003 simply rebranded by changing the name of the parent company to Altria, largely because of the anti-tobacco climate.

In '08, Philip Morris International was spun off, again largely because of tobacco issues in the US. The idea was that PMI as a separate company could increase its sales and revenue overseas, while staying insulated from losses in the U.S. stemming from toughening legislation, lawsuits, etc. Philip Morris USA remains part of the Altria family, as it has always been.

The new acquisitions are US Tobacco, which gives the company a strong position in the smokeless tobacco industry, and Ste. Michele Wines.

 

[Mossman]

Mossman, not to denegrate your post as everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, your data on the Pharmaceutical Industries profit compared to the rest of industry is WAY off. The top 10 Pharm Manufactureres made about 80 billion in net revenue in 2008. The top 3 Fortune 500 companies(Chevron, Walmart, and Exxon-Mobile) alone made over 70 billion in net revenue. Historically, Big Pharma posts relatively small profits compared to other Fortune 500 industries.

Also, and not to defend the US FDA because they are acting like Jackasses in the e-cig case, the USA has some of the most stringent drug marketing requirements in the entire world. It takes the average Pharmaceutical Company over 100 million dollars and 8-12 years of research to get a new drug(NME-New Molecular Entity) from the drawing board into the marketplace. There are pre-clinical animal phase tests required before human trials can start, then there are 3 phases of human trials before an NDA(new drug application) can even be filed to the FDA for approval.

I do agree in some cases politics enters the situation(as in the e-cig case) and this throws a serious monkeywrench in the works. Every once in awhile a bad drug does slip through the process, but that is the extreme exception rather then the rule. And when it does happen, post-marketing surveillance(a requirement of the dreaded FDA) catches almost all the baddies.

The reason that cures for cancer/AIDS etc.. haven't been found yet is because these diseases are MUCH more complex in their etiology then diseases that have been conquered in the past.

I for one would rather be living today with the FDA and Big Pharma, then 100 years ago without and dying of a bad case of Strep Throat at age 16.

And I am awake, also I'm a Summa Cum Laude Graduate of the oldest and one of the top Pharmacy Schools in the country. Before you go bashing someone elses profession/intelligence, you may want actually find out an iota about what your bashing. Also, cut the Alex Jones/ Bilderberg Group/ Brave New World conspiracy crap, if anyone wants to rant that 9/11 truther stuff , an e-cig forum is not the place.

I said at the beginnning of this post that it was a jumping off point for discussion, not a jumping off post to insult others.

Ok, perhaps I should have phrased it differently. As an overall industry big pharma has consistently ranked at the top of the Fortune 500 index for return on equity for over two decades. And each year, that profit margin increases. There is no other industry more profitable than pharmaceuticals.... Not even the banking industry. The median percentage of revenues in the F500 is usually a little higher than 3 percent, and the pharmaceutical industry regularly posts returns an average of FIVE to SIX times that figure. Nobody can touch those numbers. To tell me that constitutes "relatively small profits" is laughable... And that's not my "opinion" It's a matter of record... You can look it up if you don't believe me.

The reason for these stated profits is that they spend more money on advertising (something they weren't allowed to do ten years ago) than any other industry, and far less on R&D than we are led to believe. Not to mention, there are literally more pharmaceutical lobbyists in Washington than there are members of Congress! And they're very generous... That guarantees their prices stay nice and high, and things go the way they want them to... I won't even get into the kickbacks that doctors receive for pushing product on their patients (whether they need it or not)

And by the way, I didn't learn any of that from Alex Jones... That's a matter of record as well... But I suppose you should know that already, holding your prestigious degree and all...

To suggest that harmful drugs hardly ever reach the market largely depends on how you define "harmful". By the looks of things, it seems the industry's philosophy is: "That which does not kill you, only makes you money". We live in a heavily over-medicated culture, largely due to the influence of television and advertising. There was a reason why drug companies weren't allowed to advertise to the end consumer until 1999. It's opened the floodgates for scores of drugs (that nobody really NEEDS) to saturate the market... The short-term effects of many of them can be downright debilitating, and the long-term effects are anybody's guess.

Don't get me wrong, the pharmaceutical industry has given us many benefits over it's relatively short existence, and I do believe that we owe part of our extended life-span to various vaccines and medicines... But please don't put that in the same category as Abilify, or ....... The larger part of big pharma's cash cow is not so much about medicine anymore, as it is about lifestyle....

And please, don't act like the human race would have gone extinct if not for the vaunted and noble drug industry... I don't define myself as "homeopathic", but I do believe that everything we need to sustain our good health can be found in nature... While it's true many natural remedies can be hard to come by, and many drugs are a synthesis of organic analogs, there are also many instances where a readily available, homeopathic solution would be more effective, and more in line with the patient's best interests than any compound that's been cooked up in laboratory... But if you do need a life-saving drug, you better have deep pockets, or really good insurance plan... Otherwise, you'll be shopping for a casket.

And I find the notion of the FDA as a stalwart, unimpeachable guardian of our collective health, above any political influence to be, quite frankly, a bit naive... And to believe that Big Pharma doesn't actively suppress development of medications that don't fall in line with their bottom line strains the limits of plausibility. This isn't a philanthropy, it's a business.

Lastly, I apologize if my last post insulted you... I guess I got a little carried away, and my last remark was unnecessary. But there's a much bigger issue here than who's litigiously actionable.

 

[RyanW]

Not in the way I think you're saying? Philip Morris Companies, Inc. was the original company. It owned various other companies outside of the tobacco industry. They didn't want to be seen purely as a tobacco company, and in 2003 simply rebranded by changing the name of the parent company to Altria, largely because of the anti-tobacco climate.

Ah makes sense. Just ran across that while at work and didn't get a chance to dig much further. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[EasyE]

Oh and what is another component of antifreeze....WATER. OMG everyone stop drinking water its a known component in antifreeze!

Antifreeze which by the way I am sorry to say looks like delicious Mt. Dew, and ever since I was a child I have been barely able to restrain myself from tasting it...especially since I've always heard that its super sweet (which is why your not supposed to leave spills about so animals don't get into it)

OK my turn...

/rant off

LOL..................HILARIOUS..

 

[Casey C]

LOL..................HILARIOUS..

i knew that dihydrogen monoxide was gonna get us

yeah this all has nothing to do with the billions in lost tax revenues if cigarette smokers start getting their fix from a website

 

[zazz]

no taxation without representation, someone said that. revolution ya'll

 

[markarich159]

Mossman, this will be last post in respect to this conversation, but please post a link to where your getting your pharma profit comparison figures. I've now (besides my own personal knowledge) have referenced Cnn.money, WSJ, and Fortune 500 and, again, your not even close. Heres a link to most profitable from cnn.money(based on profits, return on revenue and return on equity)

FORTUNE 500 2007: Top Companies - Most Profitable

The only Big Pharma to even break the top 10 was Pfizer(and that is because of one single drug-......-which is priced ridiculously, and is a cash only drug-no prescription plan covers it). Also, I did acknowledge that the system wasn't perfect and politics enters into the mix. However, show me an industry where it doesn't. Thank you, by the way, for your apology, it was appreciated.

 

[chad]

We have an entire administration now under Chicago style politics. Lots of money flowing under the table.

Yep - backroom deals abound.

Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma

 

[grumpster]

Analogus are WELL KNOWN to be addictive, cause cancer, lung disease, and death, yet their totally legal and readily available at a VERY HIGH tax price. Caffeine is well knows to be very adictive and comes with a host of known health problems if over consumed yet there is no regulation beyond normal food regulations. A cup of that high octane Starbucks is more than enough to give your a good buzz far greater than anything I've ever had from a analogue or e-cig, yet starbucks is a American get your buzz on staple!

Don't drink coffee? You can get your caffene high from any one of a number of other beverages, many of which are directly marketed to minors. Don't feel like a drink? Just pop a few caffeine pills, none of which are FDA approved, yet readily available. I believe that we all can reasonably agree that caffeine is more than just a little addictive. Your options for supporting your caffeine addiction are numerous.

Alcohol is known to be very adictive and cause a great number of health related issues and deaths of both the drinker and innocent victims and family's every year. I don't believe that any reasonable person could deny that beer and any other alcoholic beverage is a mind altering and addictive drug, often consumed strictly for it's intoxicating purpose, but yet, it's a staple of American society.

What about the host of drugs widely sold on TV from weight loss drugs to those little pills designed to enhance that certain part of the male body and everything in between? They are not FDA approved and they make claims on national TV that have not been tested by the FDA. Yet they are still running prime time TV adds and sold without restriction.

I won't even go into the amount of raw sewage place in our land fills every year from baby diapers and cat boxes.

What about prescription drugs like the common thyroid drug Centhroid? This medication is the most comminly prescribed medication for thyroid patients in the nation. You can not get it without a prescription yet it is not even FDA approved. Worse yet, it's dosage level is not even consistent. There are many prescribed and non prescribed medications radially available that are not FDA approved yet are readily available in the country.

I could go on and on, but I think you should bet the point by now. So why are e-cigs under so much pressure? Basically two reasons. Prejudice and money. E-cigs are very similar to analogues, and smoking as we all know is very unpopular in this country. Anything that is unpopular or not accepted is routinely treated with prejudice by society, and unfortunately, increasingly, by the government.

If you don't believe that the FDA and the rest of the government has a great financial interest from both the tobacco industry, and pharmaceuticals, as well as the loss of ever increasing tobacco taxes then I'm not going to argue the painfully obvious. Just take a quick glance the the tax rate on cigarettes and it don't take a rocket scientist to realize that the government is actually making more money on a pack of cigarettes than the manufactures are. They will use any reason or excuse they can to justify their prejudice and defend they revenue stream no matter how unreasonable or ridiculous. Don't think prejudice can go far beyond stupid, I've only two words to say. Archie Bunker! I've also got two words for greed. FDA and IRS!

Given the numerous example I've already presented as well as the host of other issues that time and space simply prevent me from presenting, a reasonable person could not possible conclude that the government is truly looking out for the best interest of the public and in fact is only looking out for their own interest at the expense of the public.

Now if you still think that the FDA is acting in our best interest, then go ahead and keep believing that. By the way, I've got a few bridges and some beach front property I think you might be interested in buying.

 

[Maveric]

The reason that cures for cancer/AIDS etc.. haven't been found yet is because these diseases are MUCH more complex in their etiology then diseases that have been conquered in the past.

First of all, cancer has been cured, but large amounts of money can not be made off of it as it is a nature cure. Look at the research of Dr. Max Gerson, and a few others. And I have found that AIDS is too touchy of a subject, but needless to say it was caused by man, much like many cancers. I believe most, if not all diseases can be cured naturally. But our present society is too lazy and downright brainwashed by present day medicine that focuses on nothing more than treatment, and not cure. After all companies make more money from treatment, than cures. And the healthcare system is a BUSINESS, and all businesses crave profits.

Although there are foundations researching cures, today's society makes it hard on them. We crave a pill or shot, some quick fix that doesn't take any effort. We don't want to give up our processed foods, bottled drinks, and unnatural vices.

 

[halfevildruid]

Think what the economic fallout would be if there was released a cure for cancer...

It would be devastating to the economy, and cause many jobs and companies to shut down...

That's why there is no cure...