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How do/did you vape? (2018/2019)

Discussion in 'Polls' started by tailland, Oct 23, 2018.

How do/did you vape? (2018/2019)

Poll closed Oct 23, 2019.
  1. I started vaping comfortably with -> MTL

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
  2. I started vaping comfortably with -> DL

    4 vote(s)
    11.4%
  3. I switched -> from MTL to DL

    12 vote(s)
    34.3%
  4. I switched -> from DL to MTL

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%
  5. I didn't switch my style

    20 vote(s)
    57.1%
  6. I'd recommend new vapers to -> MTL

    6 vote(s)
    17.1%
  7. I'd recommend new vapers to -> DL

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%
  8. I'd recommend new vapers to -> Try Both

    17 vote(s)
    48.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. tailland

    tailland Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 11, 2018
    Germany
    It's time to put unproven stereotypes to rest.

    Let's see how many of us felt good about MTL/DL right after they started vaping, and how many of us switched their vape styles over the course of time, and what they'd recommend to beginners. This may help improve the advice we can give to newcomers.

    - Each pollee can mark 1 answer in each of the 3 categories.
    - Choose the answer that is closest to what you'd want to say.

    Please:
    Tag in your friends to get this poll as many votes as possible.
    The more representative it gets, the better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    Not sure what you were hoping to achieve with this poll. Here on ecf it seems pretty obvious the fact there aren't exactly that many high wattage (100+) vapers around anyway in the first place so instead of trying to be more representative, preaching to the choir would be the more accurate description because... well, I think it's an MTL church that's pretty much crawling with MTL evangelists who flock together here mainly to chase away the clouds... it would be kinda like counting low wattage vapers in a vape shop where 95% of vaping products sold are low wattage and the remaining 5% are high in wattage capability, but are low in quality.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. tailland

    tailland Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 11, 2018
    Germany
    Checking on stereotypes.

    One particularly persistent stereotype is that beginner vapers are (2nd assumption) at least tendentially well served with some kind of MTL-ish setup bc (1st assumption) it's "similar to smoking". You hear that pretty much anywhere, not just here on efc. I'm suspicious of both claims, simply bc I've never seen hard proof for either of them. Maybe they're true, maybe one of them, or both, are untrue. Plus, both assumed circumstances may have changed over time.

    And I think that particular question above should be asked, given the fact that the number of successful converts from tobacco->ecigs isn't as high as we'd want them to be, so perhaps, our advice to beginners may be based on wrong or outdated assumptions.

    Let's find out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Love Love x 1
  4. Doffy

    Doffy Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 15, 2014
    Australia
    I think MTL and DTL have only been terms a few years. But I did start MTL and now dtl.

    A loose draw rda was 1.5mm single hole then though.

    Maybe I would have been better served by DTL. But that was all mostly hushed, and limited to the sub ohm sub forum, complete with lots of stickies that it wasn't for newbies
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Can't speak for Anyone but Myself. But what I Needed/Wanted to use when I 1st Switched to e-Cigarettes is Vastly Different than what I used today.

    So making Assumptions on what would have been Best for me then Based on what I like the Best Now wouldn't be very relevant.

    Also, what are you Basing this statement on? "...given the fact that the number of successful converts from tobacco->ecigs isn't as high as we'd want them to be, so perhaps, our advice to beginners may be based on wrong or outdated assumptions."

    Because I Hope you are not considering the Total Population Success Rate of Switching for All Smokers to the Sub-Set Success Rate of Smokers who come to the ECF seeking Advise?

    Because it may be shown that this ECF Sub-Set has a Significantly Higher Success Rate as compared to the True Population. I which case, the Validity of your "Wrong Advise" assumption would be severely questioned.
     
  6. tailland

    tailland Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 11, 2018
    Germany
    By "our advice", I mean any vaper who'd quickly point beginners to MTL devices, operating under the aforementioned assumptions. That's not limited to this forum.

    And of course from your non-beginner perspective, you'll know best what you would've/should've told your beginner-self when you started vaping -> exactly what I want to get from the poll.

    Can you see the problem?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Just say'n that I wouldn't be too Quick to make a Single Cause Casualty Claim based on Polling Data that you receive here.

    IMO, for the Amount of Choices available in Todays e-Cigarette market, Ease-of-Use and e-Cigarette Size probably play a Larger Roll in whether a person can Successful go Smoke Free for 60 Days than MTL vs DTL does on the Population level.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. diagrammatiks

    diagrammatiks Super Member

    Aug 18, 2018
    I quit cigs within a week of picking a cig-a-like that I would never ever vape on today.
    just buy newbies one of each device and let them decide.
    it's far easier to get people to quit with high Nic content. that's pretty much the only constant.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    High nic content and DTL simply don't mix together because it would scratch and burn one's trachea far beyond "harshness" (especially on the exhale, IME anyway). Even at just below medium nic strength (~5mg/ml) in an RDA the vapeability in pure terms of the harshness I found it could be problematic at times, especially in the morning when I had to drip a few drops of 0mg juice straight on top of my coils or else I would hurt my trachea. So no, it's not the only constant, as it isn't even a constant in any way at all, or at least it shouldn't be, but unfortunately the MTL evangelists have chased away the clouds and that's what's caused high nic content to have ultimately BECOME the only constant.

    For me, coming off cigarettes took literally minutes. Like, walk into a vape shop being a smoker, walk back out again being en ex-smoker, and, knowing full well that simply isn't going to happen very frequently if high nic content is getting forced on new vapers in about the same way Brussels Sprouts for supper are getting forced on small children.
     
  10. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    A decent quality DTL setup will typically be either more expensive or too bulky to carry around for most people, or both, when compared to an MTL setup similar in quality. This IMO generally explains, at least in part, why so-called "helpful" advice aimed towards new vapers is so often nothing more than an MTL brainwash in disguise, but also IMO the simple fact that not that many people want to learn how to build their own fused claptons within their first vaping month before their handmade coils that they got installed for free at the local vape shop have worn out is paramount... and then they (the self-defined "helpful" MTL aposthles) wonder why there's so many dual users a lot of whom eventually relapse back to cigarettes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    The fuss of making "fuSsed claptons" hurts. The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.
     
  12. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    I just Don't see this Hidden MTL Brainwashing that you eluded to.

    The Vast Majority of the Hardware that I see Today can be Opened Up to give a Decent DL Hit. Or Closed Down to give a Decent MTL hit.

    The Inconvenient Truth IMO as to why switching rates are not Higher is because a Smoker who has No Experience with e-Cigarettes has a Bewildering Array of choices to make when they get their 1st Set-Up.

    What Nicotine Level?
    What PG|VG Ratio?
    What Flavor?
    What Ohms (What are Ohms?)
    What Watts (What are Watts?)
    How many Coils?
    What Type of Coil?
    What Alloy of Wire?
    What Battery?
    What Charger?
    .
    .
    .
    etc.

    And the thing that Many People here on the ECF can lose track of is the Vast Majority of New e-Cigarette Users do Not come to e-Cigarette Forums seeking advise.

    So what do you have? You have a First Timer making Guesses about what might work and then Buying something Online.

    And then when it comes, they Try to Figure Out on their own what the heck they should be doing? All the while going thru the Struggle of trying to be Smoke Free for that 1st Week.

    And If/When that Fails, Many/Most just Give Up on e-Cigarettes.

    People can make this All About MTL vs DL if they want. But that seems Extremely Myopic to the Big Picture.

    And it would be Nice if we could Draw a Neat Box around One Thing and then point at it say'n "There's the Problem!". But, like Most things in Life, it just Isn't that Simple.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  13. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    I wasn't referring to the hardware that the manufacturers bring to market. Rather, I was referring to members of the forum who systemically, visibly with every chance they get and by using highly presumptuous arguments (and quite possibly also using fake arguments), try to steer every new vaper towards MTL.

    The main important reason why switching rates are not higher is because too many people want a miracle solution that never breaks, is easier to use than a normal cigarette, and costs ten bucks (preferrably less than that). Also, when they see my clouds, a lot of them look at me like the devil just appeared in front of them, and then I can actually hear them think "that simply can't be good".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Like I said. I just Ain't seeing it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  15. tailland

    tailland Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 11, 2018
    Germany
    The [smoker=>MTL] stereotype is everywhere, not just on ecf, but it works in different ways depending on where it is peddled around.

    If you're a willing convertee, and you rely on the advice of vape store clerks, you're bound to make a questionable purchase, and chances are, you'll be p*ssed off.

    It's what happened to me in 2014, when I first got interested in vaping. After doing a short read on the internets, with people saying "you'll get good advice in your local vape shop", that's where I went. Clerk showed me 1 thing, sold me another (some stupid high-ohm ego-c thing for 60€/$67), and it was complete and utter sh*te. Since I had zero knowledge of my own about the exchangeability of the device's parts, I just threw the whole thing into the trash and held a grudge against the vape shop for advising me badly. And that's what kept me hooked on cigs for another 4 years.

    If you're a willing convertee, and you seek the advice from vaping randos on the interwebs, you're certain to run head first into the "smokers should try MTL" myth.

    And again, as someone with zero experiental knowledge of your own, that's probably what you'll go after. Even if you read a few voices saying otherwise, you'll likely disregard those voices, putting your trust in the majority vote of the people who you think should know best, not realising that you're being deluded by a stubborn and ultimately unwarranted stereotype.

    I'm not sure that the (old) folks on ecf are especially manipulative in that regard. It rather looks to me that they just do what pretty much everyone else does - which is ofc wrong, but not malevolent.

    But however you look at it, it's a non-ideal situation for beginners.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Susaz

    Susaz Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Most seasoned vapers vape restricted DL, 25/40W. I'm vaping hotter than usual, ranging to almost 50W. When I have to make a recommendation to a noob it also depends on how much they smoke. 2 pack a day smokers will enjoy restricted DL and 0,5 ohm coils. MTL are less than a pack a day smokers. Pod vapers are getting in between, and just for convenience. The poll serves no purpose.
     
  17. tailland

    tailland Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 11, 2018
    Germany
    It's the purely detractive posts that serve no purpose.
     
  18. Jebbn

    Jebbn Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2018
    Australia
    There is no nefarious cabal of MTL vapers trying to hijack the vaping industry.

    signed, The United League of Mouth to Lung Vapers
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
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  19. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    I couldn't have worded it better. Of course it's wrong, but not malevolent because, instead, it's just the blind misleading the blind in a systemic omnipresent and repetitive way that's gotten so repetitive in fact, one has to wonder why those who are in favor of the smallest type clouds are those who are suffering from clouded vision the most... :)
     
  20. dripster

    dripster Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    Belgium
    I was smoking less than a pack a day. But if what you just described had been the only options available to me, I would still be smoking today, with certainty, and, I made the instantaneous switch (i.e. without a conversion period of time between being a smoker and being an ex-smoker) exactly BECAUSE those weren't the only options so, to me, personally, your recommendation would have caused me to conclude "vaping is not for me; I tried to quit smoking a few times, but the struggle is just too arduous for me so now I'm just going to have to accept the fact I'm most likely going to keep smoking for the rest of my life, and I really don't get why inhaling antifreeze seems to be the new thing, because it clearly sucks from here to eternity". Bottom line, the presumptous nature of your own self-defined "non-noob" recommendation serves no purpose because I'm living proof that it doesn't serve any purpose.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
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