How many watts? Can't figure this out

[chandco]

I've been trying to search for information about this, but the search terms are so general. When I build a deck, how do I figure out how many watts to run it at? If I'm building a 0.15 vs a .6 ohms, I'm guessing they're going to have very different power needs. And does the type of build effect it? I'm going to start off with simple 24g stainless steel coils, but I might get into the more crazy stuff (I really love tinkering and figuring things out).

Thanks SO much for your help.

 

[whiteowl84]

The ohm load is irrelevant for regulated mods. All you need to worry about is mass.
You vape at the wattage you like. There isn't a correct amount.

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[TwistedThrottle]

I usually vape at 4.2 volts so I take volts squared divide by ohms to put me in the ball park of watts to set the device to.

 

[Njsm]

+1 whiteowl


Wire thickless and ramp up plays a big part. Thick wire needs more ramp up. And paralell or multiple coils share the overall wattage.

Dont over amp your batteries and vape to your liking...!

Happy vaping.!

 

[chandco]

Okay, ohms are not applicable, good to know, I was worried something going wrong if I took it too high. I asked about ohms 'cause most coils for non-RBA tanks have a range of what they can be used at, I assumed that was important.

What about a good starting point while I'm figuring out what works best? If I'm using, say, 24g SS, a simple wrap. Should I start testing at 30W? 50?

I'm still trying to understand this all, thanks for all your feedback.

 

[whiteowl84]

It doesn't matter where you start. If you have to wait for it to heat it's too low. If you can't handle the heat it's too high.
The wattage is going to be different for everyone.

If most people hit mine they'd have a coughing fit.
If I hit other people's I'd be disappointed.

It's always different.

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[Njsm]

Depends on your device. How well you wicked it. How much airflow you have... etc.

Generally when i build on a new device i start around 50w and keep increasing by 10 watts per puff until its acceptable or goes dry/burns. At that point youd tone it back to an acceptable range.
That also being said. If im rebuilding a known device ill hit it around 50 then 100 then 150 etc because i already know that device and what its capable of and at that point im just testing my build.

If your mod shows AMPS on the display keep those under 25amps if youre planning on chainvaping at that wattage.

 

[johnnyelevator]

Okay, ohms are not applicable, good to know, I was worried something going wrong if I took it too high. I asked about ohms 'cause most coils for non-RBA tanks have a range of what they can be used at, I assumed that was important.

What about a good starting point while I'm figuring out what works best? If I'm using, say, 24g SS, a simple wrap. Should I start testing at 30W? 50?

I'm still trying to understand this all, thanks for all your feedback.

With ss wire you need dry fire your coils at low wattage once installed and pre-wicked. Watch the video from advance vape on how to prep your as coils.

24 guage (vs 28 gauge) wire takes more time/power to heat up. So either use pre-heat function on your mod (if equipped) or more power (Watts).

 

[whiteowl84]

A 20 minute video of how to dry burn stainless with some of the ugliest coils I've ever seen.

You can use SS the exact same way you do n80 or A1. No special treatment is required.

With simple coils you can get away with 30w to pulse out the hotspots and 30 to 50 to dry burn.
I color builds like this with 30w so it should be plenty for more simple builds.
I was able to get rid of the hotspots before the SS color was gone on the interlock or the ribbon despite the horrible velocity deck keeping tension on the legs.

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[mcclintock]

The coil itself is just one limiting factor. Wicking, airflow -- that you actually use -- and your lungs are the main others. Any one will limit the vape despite the others. The best vape occurs when all are in proportion, although, as one example, it's better for the coil to be too big than too small.

The primary measure of coil size is surface area, not mass. Excess mass will slow things down and draw extra power, but even then with enough time will approach a near-equilibrium of the power coming in being equal to the power needed to vaporize the juice and the heat it carries away. Surface area is how much the power is spread and therefore the temperature of that surface is controlled.

The surface area and heat flux can be calculated, e.g. Steam Engine | free vaping calculators , or correlated with typical power from experience. I don't use that size or power but still guess start with 7.5-9 wraps on 3 mm and 30W, might get 50.

 

[chandco]

Great, incredibly helpful information, guys. This is wonderful.

So a coil's surface area is the important part... a lower gauge round wire ends up having more SA but increased mass as well, whereas finding a way to increase the surface area, like flattening it, makes a bigger coil without increasing mass. And greater mass requires greater power.

Hopefully that's right, and now I finally see why people do all the crazy coils. I was torn between "there must be a reason for it" and "i guess they want to look cool."

 

[whiteowl84]

I know from experience that mass does matter.
When I compare a 10x 32g alien to a 14ply 26g framed staggerton (below), even though the staggerton needs more power the vape is much much more intense. The surface touching wick is important but so is the heated mass.
Thinner coils also tend to gunk up a bit faster.

I'm also a welder/blacksmith. If you heat a piece of 1/2" square white hot to work with it and compare it to 1" square heated to the same temp the 1" square is putting off much more heat. Just the heat radiating off of it is enough to burn you without contact if you're close enough too long.

To find a build that suits you just takes some trial and error. You want something that's going to produce a nice vape but also something that can be heated instantly to spare your batteries and thus cool instantly so it isn't gunking up from staying hot after you hit it.

 

[chandco]

Okay, so I want high SA, but a higher (to some extent) mass can actually be beneficial if I'm willing to sacrifice battery for the additional power?

Thank you, that's really helpful to know, and well/clearly explained. Y'all are helping me so much with this variety of information, each one of these posts has been excellent, and so well explained. And a lot that I'm not finding in the beginner tutorials.

And, the technical aspect of these is awesome. I minored in physics, and I find discussions of these aspects to be endlessly fascinating. I love thinking about stuff.

@whiteowl84, what types of wire are those? The lower one, is that the stapled kind?

Where do I buy the fancy-pants kinds of wire (when I have money again)?

 

[sonicbomb]

Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...power-and-coil-resistance.7753/#comment-13795
If you have two guages of wire with the second one being twice the thickness, the second will have twice the surface area but four times the mass.

 

[whiteowl84]

Okay, so I want high SA, but a higher (to some extent) mass can actually be beneficial if I'm willing to sacrifice battery for the additional power?

Thank you, that's really helpful to know, and well/clearly explained. Y'all are helping me so much with this variety of information, each one of these posts has been excellent, and so well explained. And a lot that I'm not finding in the beginner tutorials.

And, the technical aspect of these is awesome. I minored in physics, and I find discussions of these aspects to be endlessly fascinating. I love thinking about stuff.

@whiteowl84, what types of wire are those? The lower one, is that the stapled kind?

Where do I buy the fancy-pants kinds of wire (when I have money again)?

Yes exactly, I think you have it.

The one on top is a 10x 32g core alien/cat track.

The bottom one is a staggerton which is a variation of a staple. A staple is just ribbon coiled vertically or on it's 0.1mm side.

If you're looking for pre-made builds similar to those I'll gladly make them.

If you just want a great wire supplier look up Coil Society. Most people use Lightning Vapes wire but as a builder who's used every supplier I can tell you it's the worst of all of them. The wire quality is abysmal compared to the real stuff.
There are other great suppliers but I've not come across anything that is better than Coil Society's. When you factor in their prices and the fact that Jeff (the owner) will make sure that you're taken care of if you have an issue, there really isn't any better choice.

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[whiteowl84]

Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...power-and-coil-resistance.7753/#comment-13795
If you have two guages of wire with the second one being twice the thickness, the second will have twice the surface area but four times the mass.

I'm using Tapatalk and I can't get the link to pull up.

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[Zakillah]

So a coil's surface area is the important part... a lower gauge round wire ends up having more SA but increased mass as well, whereas finding a way to increase the surface area, like flattening it, makes a bigger coil without increasing mass. And greater mass requires greater power.

No. Its a common misconception. You hear it all the time, but its wrong.
If you´re intested in the more "theoretical" stuff here are some interesting threats for reference:
Wire/coil gauge efficiency testing
So you think you can design a coil?

 

[whiteowl84]

No. Its a common misconception. You hear it all the time, but its wrong.
If you´re intested in the more "theoretical" stuff here are some interesting threats for reference:
Wire/coil gauge efficiency testing
So you think you can design a coil?

The part you highlighted makes your post sound like a bigger wire doesn't have more surface area.
10mm of 24g has 16.4 square mm while 26g has 12.98 square mm.
However that doesn't mean that if you make equally wide builds with both that the 24g coil will have more surface are. It might but I'm not doing the math on that right now.

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[Zakillah]

Of course you have to compare coils of the same size (width and diameter). You need more length with a thinner wire to get the same size coil compared to thicker wire.
Overall, the total surface area will be almost equal, no matter what wire you use, however the thinner wire will have a larger wick to wire contact area, which is what counts in the end. The top of the wire, the "visible part" is essentiell useless when it comes to creating vapor. The thicker the wire, the more "useless surface area" you have.

 

[whiteowl84]

Of course you have to compare coils of the same size (width and diameter). You need more length with a thinner wire to get the same size coil compared to thicker wire.
Overall, the total surface area will be almost equal, no matter what wire you use, however the thinner wire will have a larger wick to wire contact area, which is what counts in the end. The top of the wire, the "visible part" is essentiell useless when it comes to creating vapor. The thicker the wire, the more "useless surface area" you have.

There is more to it than just surface area touching wick.
My 10x 32g aliens touch more wick than my 14ply builds but the staple walks all over it. Alien gets much hotter than the staple given the same wattage but the staple can drain a tank in 15 to 20 pulls and the flavor/cloud is much more intense.

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