How much nicotine is destroyed during vaping ?
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Ok, I know I'm backtracking, but I couldn't pass this up:
kin, when I was a young smoker, probably my first or second year into it, an old neighbor of mine that ran a general store down the road told me something I've always reflected on. He was an avid ice fisherman and in the winter he was on the ice around 5:00am. One day while buying a pack of smokes (I was around 15 at the time, but he was a life long family friend and the anti-smoking movement was still a few years away) he says "Ya know, it's a fact that if you can't see the smoke, you don't enjoy the cigarette. Every mornin' when I go afishin', if it wasn't for the cherry I wouldn't even know I was asmokin'. Just can't enjoy one 'till the sun comes up." I nodded while reminding him not to tell Dad about the Marlboro's, got on the bike and left. Over the years, almost every time I've smoked in the dark I think of that. He was right. The satisfaction just wasn't there. I agree, it is a price worth paying for
.
I'm interested, too. It may be too low of a dose to not be worth the hassle, but if it turns out that it'll give up it's goods I'll be on the way to the tobacco mart.
kin, when I was a young smoker, probably my first or second year into it, an old neighbor of mine that ran a general store down the road told me something I've always reflected on. He was an avid ice fisherman and in the winter he was on the ice around 5:00am. One day while buying a pack of smokes (I was around 15 at the time, but he was a life long family friend and the anti-smoking movement was still a few years away) he says "Ya know, it's a fact that if you can't see the smoke, you don't enjoy the cigarette. Every mornin' when I go afishin', if it wasn't for the cherry I wouldn't even know I was asmokin'. Just can't enjoy one 'till the sun comes up." I nodded while reminding him not to tell Dad about the Marlboro's, got on the bike and left. Over the years, almost every time I've smoked in the dark I think of that. He was right. The satisfaction just wasn't there. I agree, it is a price worth paying for
. I'd be very interested if you could determine (by titration) the nic extractable from say 5 analogs (potentially ~50mg) by a 24 hour soak in PGA + VG. When you have time to fit it in of course
edit : for nic read alkaloids. If only half was extractable, still pretty good and simple to do. And WTA style too. I am confident that by far the nasties are combustion products rather than innates. Might gunk attys a bit, but better that than gunk lungs with smoke debris!
I'm interested, too. It may be too low of a dose to not be worth the hassle, but if it turns out that it'll give up it's goods I'll be on the way to the tobacco mart
.
Vaporer, only a 6V test to make sure the atty would last a full test run
in the rig. Not got to actually testing 6V on 70mg juice yet.
Wasn't trying to figure a volt fall off with time (as in battery),
just a consistent testing regime, with known parameters and reasons.
OK Kin good reasoning, so assuming the coil stays at 3.7 ohms, at 6V applied externally,
& there's only 5.2V reaching the ends of the nichrome coil as you say.
Then something (in the atty, almost certainly not the nichrome)
is giving a significantly greater resistance at 6V 1.4amp, than at 3.7V 1 amp.
Presumably then that would be the nichrome/solder interface surface (?),
so what's a 6V test, one that actually gets 6V to the coil, or just applies
it externally.
Actually I guess it's all about the current, i.e test different currents,
and just record the applied voltage (and coil resistance when cold).
Haven't forgotten the tobacco soak test, just need to concentrate on the current (ha) testing a bit.
btw I see 'PGA' quoted , presumably that is PG, PGA is something else entirely.
I think rolling tobacco would be a better candidate,
probably 'American Spirit' as DVap was using in the end to make WTA.
in the rig. Not got to actually testing 6V on 70mg juice yet.
Wasn't trying to figure a volt fall off with time (as in battery),
just a consistent testing regime, with known parameters and reasons.
OK Kin good reasoning, so assuming the coil stays at 3.7 ohms, at 6V applied externally,
& there's only 5.2V reaching the ends of the nichrome coil as you say.
Then something (in the atty, almost certainly not the nichrome)
is giving a significantly greater resistance at 6V 1.4amp, than at 3.7V 1 amp.
Presumably then that would be the nichrome/solder interface surface (?),
so what's a 6V test, one that actually gets 6V to the coil, or just applies
it externally.
Actually I guess it's all about the current, i.e test different currents,
and just record the applied voltage (and coil resistance when cold).
Haven't forgotten the tobacco soak test, just need to concentrate on the current (ha) testing a bit.
btw I see 'PGA' quoted , presumably that is PG, PGA is something else entirely.
I think rolling tobacco would be a better candidate,
probably 'American Spirit' as DVap was using in the end to make WTA.
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The extra resistance is most likely that internal to the power supply. Easy to check with a voltmeter.
To drop 0.8v at 1.4A requires only half an ohm of resistance. If the supply is voltage stabilised, then the connecor wires and connections must account for it; but these will not change with voltage much at all, so measure what the voltage is under load and it'll be about 5.2V.
PGA is pure grain alcohol, more ethanol than in vodka.
To drop 0.8v at 1.4A requires only half an ohm of resistance. If the supply is voltage stabilised, then the connecor wires and connections must account for it; but these will not change with voltage much at all, so measure what the voltage is under load and it'll be about 5.2V.
PGA is pure grain alcohol, more ethanol than in vodka.
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The voltages and currents were measured close to the point of use,
ie as close as possible to the equivalent battery inputs.
These are actual figures for under-load as far as I can determine.
So extra resistance is almost certainly not due to cabling etc,
the measurements were checked with three different multimeters just in case of error.
Ah, pure grain ethanol, good, I was getting confused there,
well I've got a 100ml bottle of 95% ethanol (duty paid & all that),
so could give it a go, but a bit later.
ie as close as possible to the equivalent battery inputs.
These are actual figures for under-load as far as I can determine.
So extra resistance is almost certainly not due to cabling etc,
the measurements were checked with three different multimeters just in case of error.
Ah, pure grain ethanol, good, I was getting confused there,
well I've got a 100ml bottle of 95% ethanol (duty paid & all that),
so could give it a go, but a bit later.
A bit over-busy this evening, but will think about it. Perhaps the particular alloy used has an unusual coefficient. See if a new one with solid solder joints behaves the same. Not that this matters for the experiments, but is curious.
Just to elucidate something so obvious it might be overlooked - that nicotine efficiency is higher than at first thought from e-cigs, adds weight to the WTA case, post-vape malabsorption aside. That is, the lack is not so much nic as 'other'.
I think thats 'other' as in the other stuff that's in DVaps Whole Tobacco Extract juice.
Finally got another result (delayed due to damned tech. probs again),
70mg/ml nic. in glycerol, thinned with + 1/6th DI water,
to compare with the PG result.
Will get to titrating the collected vapour tomorrow.
Looks like the variable (with current) 'extra' electrical resistance in the system
was probably due to a switching reed-relay operating near maximum current (doh!).
Getting beefier relays.
Strange observation for the intermittent efficiency of vapour collapse with 5kV,
sometimes it clears immediately, sometimes is stops clearing.
Seems that when working well the 5kV 'suspended' wire, (0.1mm diam) running down the tube,
vibrates like a guitar string, presumably physical forces causing an oscillation.
I'm guessing the vibration causes the collecting droplets to run down the wire quicker,
exposing more wire & greater electrostatic transfer (?)
Going to try forcing a 50Hz vibration with an external electro-magnet,
with a tiny magnet clamped onto the middle of the wire length,
to possibly give a more consistent system - maybe.
Finally got another result (delayed due to damned tech. probs again),
70mg/ml nic. in glycerol, thinned with + 1/6th DI water,
to compare with the PG result.
Will get to titrating the collected vapour tomorrow.
Looks like the variable (with current) 'extra' electrical resistance in the system
was probably due to a switching reed-relay operating near maximum current (doh!).
Getting beefier relays.
Strange observation for the intermittent efficiency of vapour collapse with 5kV,
sometimes it clears immediately, sometimes is stops clearing.
Seems that when working well the 5kV 'suspended' wire, (0.1mm diam) running down the tube,
vibrates like a guitar string, presumably physical forces causing an oscillation.
I'm guessing the vibration causes the collecting droplets to run down the wire quicker,
exposing more wire & greater electrostatic transfer (?)
Going to try forcing a 50Hz vibration with an external electro-magnet,
with a tiny magnet clamped onto the middle of the wire length,
to possibly give a more consistent system - maybe.
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Forgot to say that the collected 70 mg VG vapour is surprisingly not as coloured
as the 70mg PG, but it is slightly cloudy, which PG wasn't.
Also Vaporer, I retract what I said about the just-PG (no nic) collected 6v vaped & collected liquid,
looking more closely it does have a very very feint beige colour, and a
very feint smell of toast.
The 6V just-VG liquour on the other hand is definately beige, and smells of
toast plus a vinegary smell (hesitate to say acrid - that has a possibly
unwarranted association).
Must sort out the titration results...
as the 70mg PG, but it is slightly cloudy, which PG wasn't.
Also Vaporer, I retract what I said about the just-PG (no nic) collected 6v vaped & collected liquid,
looking more closely it does have a very very feint beige colour, and a
very feint smell of toast.
The 6V just-VG liquour on the other hand is definately beige, and smells of
toast plus a vinegary smell (hesitate to say acrid - that has a possibly
unwarranted association).
Must sort out the titration results...
Long suspected that hight V / high temp attys provide something of the smoke that some like; toast might smell nice but it's not healthy (acryamides and other HCAs / AGEs).
I wonder if there are any particles involved in the beigeness (suspension). Most likely ash (amorphus carbon, but possibly a mix of organic solids, perhaps melted/burnt polymer 'spheres'; maybe even tin??)
I wonder if there are any particles involved in the beigeness (suspension). Most likely ash (amorphus carbon, but possibly a mix of organic solids, perhaps melted/burnt polymer 'spheres'; maybe even tin??)
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Thanks for this thread - it's nice to see some real tests being done. Among us anyway.
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Interesting thread guys. A little over my head but still very interesting.
I am a little confused about the question of how much nicotine we absorb vaping as opposed to smoking analogs.
I have tried quitting smoking numerous times and one of my biggest hurdles is the panic attacks i get if I do not have nicotine. Since I started vaping I have not had any of these and no real desire for a smoke, or should I say when I desire a smoke I vape and that takes care of the craving.
Therefore I must be getting nicotine right? Or is my brain fooling with me?
I am a little confused about the question of how much nicotine we absorb vaping as opposed to smoking analogs.
I have tried quitting smoking numerous times and one of my biggest hurdles is the panic attacks i get if I do not have nicotine. Since I started vaping I have not had any of these and no real desire for a smoke, or should I say when I desire a smoke I vape and that takes care of the craving.
Therefore I must be getting nicotine right? Or is my brain fooling with me?
Thanks for the interest katkin & dgriego
nice to know somebody's reading this apart from all the usual suspects....and lurkio.
Personally I'm dead confused by how we supposedly only get 10% adsorbtion
(into the blood) of the nicotine in juice, which appears to be mostly
left intact during (normal) vaping.
The toasty smell might indicate a small amount of something,
but compared to ciggies.....?
btw how do you know I'm not a climate researcher?, does that group
have a habit of over-emphasing their research result then?
(actually it's been shown that 90% of global warming is caused by
PV heating coils - bloke down the pub told me - & he was a climate researcher too)
Definately will get latest result sorted by tommorow...
nice to know somebody's reading this apart from all the usual suspects
....and lurkio.Personally I'm dead confused by how we supposedly only get 10% adsorbtion
(into the blood) of the nicotine in juice, which appears to be mostly
left intact during (normal) vaping.
The toasty smell might indicate a small amount of something,
but compared to ciggies.....?
btw how do you know I'm not a climate researcher?, does that group
have a habit of over-emphasing their research result then?
(actually it's been shown that 90% of global warming is caused by
PV heating coils - bloke down the pub told me - & he was a climate researcher too)
Definately will get latest result sorted by tommorow...
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So now I'm a usual suspect, or can I be lurkio? lol
I've been kinda slow lately.
With power supplies...yea... they can be tricky in the way they list them vs what you get. If you need 1A, better to get a 2A. Need 2A, a 4-5 is a better choice than a 3A.
Many will rate as peak, meaning they will do the listed amount, but won't hold it.
Sometimes putting a large capacitor across the output is all thats needed to give it a boost. The main word to watch for is "continous". You won't see it used much.
I'm not sold on the 10% figure for vaping. For analogs they have tested it and proved it @ 10%. Nicotine is a 2hr blood item, or close. There is a diff absoption factor from vaping, slower, but if I smoked .6mg ultra lights I should at 10% be able to vape 6mg eliquid and be happy. Well, that isnt gonna happen and doesn't. I'm happy at 18-24mg. 36mg is to much. I'd think in 2hrs I could vape 6mg enough to satisfy if the 10% was true.
Climatologist? You are a well rounded fellow! lol
Guess if you ever remembered it snowed more last yr than this one or actually paid attention to the rain, have a rain guage that you read occasionally, you can be one.
You'd be closer than our weatherman for sure!
If PV heating coils are causing global warming then I better notify th EPA so they can regulate the US ones to 3 watts of power.
I've been kinda slow lately.
With power supplies...yea... they can be tricky in the way they list them vs what you get. If you need 1A, better to get a 2A. Need 2A, a 4-5 is a better choice than a 3A.
Many will rate as peak, meaning they will do the listed amount, but won't hold it.
Sometimes putting a large capacitor across the output is all thats needed to give it a boost. The main word to watch for is "continous". You won't see it used much.
I'm not sold on the 10% figure for vaping. For analogs they have tested it and proved it @ 10%. Nicotine is a 2hr blood item, or close. There is a diff absoption factor from vaping, slower, but if I smoked .6mg ultra lights I should at 10% be able to vape 6mg eliquid and be happy. Well, that isnt gonna happen and doesn't. I'm happy at 18-24mg. 36mg is to much. I'd think in 2hrs I could vape 6mg enough to satisfy if the 10% was true.
Climatologist? You are a well rounded fellow! lol
Guess if you ever remembered it snowed more last yr than this one or actually paid attention to the rain, have a rain guage that you read occasionally, you can be one.
You'd be closer than our weatherman for sure!
If PV heating coils are causing global warming then I better notify th EPA so they can regulate the US ones to 3 watts of power.
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You're right to multiply the .6mg by 10 to figure there's about 6mg of nicotine in an ultra light. But you're missing something in the next step.
6mg liquid has 6mg per milliliter. To vaporize the 6mg you'd need to vape a full ml of liquid and that would certainly take much longer and require many more puffs than to smoke the ultra light.
If approaching the calculation from this angle I think it should be more like:
You want to see what vaping 6mg of nicotine feels like since that's the amount of nic in one ultra light before smoking it, and since you are also expecting (because someone has said this) that the vaping absorption is around 10%
You guess that 2 drops of liquid is consumed in a vaping session equivalent to smoking one cigarette. (Insert your own number for the number of drops as you wish.)
So 2 drops of liquid must contain 6mg nic for this test. Since there are 20 drops in a ml, you need 6 * 20/2 = 60mg liquid to do this test. And if the test works out right, you're expecting to feel about the same from vaping this 60mg liquid as you would from smoking the ultra lights.
We already know the answer though. You find 36mg liquid is too much, so 60mg is going to be way too much.
Bottom line conclusion: You're definitely absorbing more than 10% of the nic in the eliquid. If this were not the case you would not find 60mg liquid too strong. What percentage you are absorbing is another question.
To get an accurate answer we'd have to refine the drops of liquid used to equate to one cigarette, and far more difficult, we'd have to measure when you are actually getting exactly the same fix via something like blood tests. Informal studies DVap has done indicate roughly 40% nic intake. Your vaping of 18-24mg, using the above calculations and assuming 2 drops = 1 cigarette would result in a conclusion of 30%. Its in the same ballpark.
Hang on I'm getting confused here, I thought the 10% figure for
cigarettes was 10% nicotine in the smoke, compared to what's actually
in the tobacco in the ciggie to start with - i.e. destroyed on heating/combustion.
Been assuming that whatever smoke is 'retained' controls the amount of nicotine in the blood,
since smoke is such an efficient delivery system.
But when smoking, average exhale is up to 2/3 of the smoke.
So an typical ciggie with 10mg nicotine, 1mg delivered in smoke. 2/3 exhaled = 1/3 mg
available to lung-adsorb, which it probably does cos smoke is a damn good transfer agent
(compared to PG/VG droplets it seems ???)
With vaping, if nearly all of the nic comes across in the vapour intact
(as appears to be the case - the whole point of these tests),
and the exhale proportion was the same, then that would mean a normal ciggie equivalent
in vaping terms is only 0.05ml of say 18mg/ml juice (two & a half drops)
(or only eighteen 3 sec. vapes at about 0.001 ml juice per sec, as found by DVap empirically),
which is what you're saying - an 18 drag 'vaping session' is equivalent to a ciggie (in nicotine).
But that ignores the apparently greater efficiency of smoke over vapour as the delivery
mechanism. Although I think you can/do hold vapour in more/longer than smoke,
maybe vapour is only X% as efficient for the lung-transfer process than smoke,
who know's maybe only 10%, the rest exhaled un-noticed & invisibly with subsequent breaths ?.
So if the study figures of 10% (of nic. in juice?) arriving in the bloodstream IS correct,
then where's the discrepency ?, is it in the massively poorer efficiency of vapour-lung trasfer
(c.f. smoke), or something else.
If the study figures are wrong, how could it be so wrong - i.e. by a factor of around 3
(if 2/3 vapour is exhaled), something still doesn't add up either way.
Vaporer, I'm not a Climatologist, that was a joke carried over from Kin's last post
(the relevant bit was actually edited out, but I remembered it Kin).
Perhaps it might be like light bulbs, the higher the power the less energy wastage,
so we should all be vaping with 100 watt atties, to save the planet !
Yes the power pack says I can do around ~10% duty cycle at full current = 2 amps,
continuous at 1.5 amp.
So should be OK, if not got my eye on a much nicer one, which I wish I'd bought instead.
Edit: no I didn't mean you were Lurkio Vaporer !, I meant lurkers generally
(& that's not meant to be derogatory in any way)
cigarettes was 10% nicotine in the smoke, compared to what's actually
in the tobacco in the ciggie to start with - i.e. destroyed on heating/combustion.
Been assuming that whatever smoke is 'retained' controls the amount of nicotine in the blood,
since smoke is such an efficient delivery system.
But when smoking, average exhale is up to 2/3 of the smoke.
So an typical ciggie with 10mg nicotine, 1mg delivered in smoke. 2/3 exhaled = 1/3 mg
available to lung-adsorb, which it probably does cos smoke is a damn good transfer agent
(compared to PG/VG droplets it seems ???)
With vaping, if nearly all of the nic comes across in the vapour intact
(as appears to be the case - the whole point of these tests),
and the exhale proportion was the same, then that would mean a normal ciggie equivalent
in vaping terms is only 0.05ml of say 18mg/ml juice (two & a half drops)
(or only eighteen 3 sec. vapes at about 0.001 ml juice per sec, as found by DVap empirically),
which is what you're saying - an 18 drag 'vaping session' is equivalent to a ciggie (in nicotine).
But that ignores the apparently greater efficiency of smoke over vapour as the delivery
mechanism. Although I think you can/do hold vapour in more/longer than smoke,
maybe vapour is only X% as efficient for the lung-transfer process than smoke,
who know's maybe only 10%, the rest exhaled un-noticed & invisibly with subsequent breaths ?.
So if the study figures of 10% (of nic. in juice?) arriving in the bloodstream IS correct,
then where's the discrepency ?, is it in the massively poorer efficiency of vapour-lung trasfer
(c.f. smoke), or something else.
If the study figures are wrong, how could it be so wrong - i.e. by a factor of around 3
(if 2/3 vapour is exhaled), something still doesn't add up either way.
Vaporer, I'm not a Climatologist, that was a joke carried over from Kin's last post
(the relevant bit was actually edited out, but I remembered it Kin
).Perhaps it might be like light bulbs, the higher the power the less energy wastage,
so we should all be vaping with 100 watt atties, to save the planet !
Yes the power pack says I can do around ~10% duty cycle at full current = 2 amps,
continuous at 1.5 amp.
So should be OK, if not got my eye on a much nicer one, which I wish I'd bought instead.
Edit: no I didn't mean you were Lurkio Vaporer !, I meant lurkers generally
(& that's not meant to be derogatory in any way)
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