How much nicotine is destroyed during vaping ?

[exogenesis]

Yeah, sorry about the slowness TV
had a couple of 'technical glitches' (again),
wires starting arcing & one actually snapped just due
to being slowly pitted.

So I beefed up the wire size & used very thick wire as cathodes,
which is what Dvap suggested in the first place

Right now it's vaped through 16ml (of 20ml) of 18mg/ml in PG without a hitch,
at 1.5 ml/hour, so should have another result pretty soon - touch wood.


I'm using a 901 Vaporer (a fresh one for each test now)
(presently at 3.70 V - actually 3.58 close to the atty, under 1.0 amp load),
DVap used 510, which I will also have a go at as soon as I get
1 or 2 more 901 results. (high voltage and acidified-juice).

Yes, I'm expecting some difference with the say 50% extra power
going through a 510 atty - but it might be just the same as a higher
voltage on a 901 (can't think why it wouldn't be).

Hmmm, recovery of 900%, that would be good,
perhaps I should patent this device
(actually with 10x, I meant it collapses the vapour 10x quicker',
meaning a much faster vaping rate & far less over-run losses to worry about).

 

[exogenesis]

Another result:

18.0mg/ml nicotine in PG,
collected 20.2 ml of condensed vapour.
vaped at 3.7 V, 1.0 amp (3.58V under load at atty).
Cycle = 5 sec draw + 7.5 sec pause, gave 1.5 ml/hour juice vaping rate.

Titration gave 345mg 'nicotine' = 94.9% recovery,
- slightly higher (a bit unexpected) than with 70 mg/ml vaped juice.

Bit bemused by two observations : there's something different between PG & glycerol (+ 17% water).

1:

The titration curve for glycerol is definately closer to a 'clean' nicotine shape,
the PG one has a much shallower infection point (but PG original juice has a clean titration shape),
does this imply some chemical alteration during vaping with PG but not with glyerol ?

2:

I add excess alkali in order to get the 'high pH inflection point' when titrating with acid,
this is needed because the pH of the collected vapour seems to have
dropped significantly compared to the original juice.
(which btw I think may is minor contribution to the missing titre in DVap's original cryogenic experiment)

But it appears I 'lose' some of the alkali, since the volume of (same strength) acid needed to get to
the same pH as it was originally , is significantly lower than the volume of alkali added (for PG at least).

The 'lost volume' seems to relate more to the amount of nicotine, rather than the amount of PG.
(e.g. 70mg/ml nic in PG, 4.75 ml vapour collected, initial (diluted) pH = 8.66, add 6ml 0.1M alkali
= pH 10.6, start adding 0.1M acid, pH 8.66 reached at 3.5ml added = 2.5 ml 'missing',
all pH's were stable).

This volume difference is far greater with PG than with glycerol, not sure what the reason for
the 'loss' is, or why there's an obvious difference between PG & glycerol.

Isn't chemistry wonderful (/confusing)....

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Isn't chemistry wonderful (/confusing)....

Pretty well sums it up for me, exo. I'll do my best to follow, but all I can offer is some 2/0 welding cable if you cook the cathode again .

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks for the offer TV, if I need to build an industrial version of the vapour-collecting
auto-vaper rig, I'll probably need to use 'wire' that size

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

..gotcha covered, big guy. That's what I'm here for.

 

[cyberwolfrob]

ok....my question is(without the whole science) How much is released during exhale?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Would be an open answer, I'd say. That would depend on how long and deep the inhale, how long it's held, how slow or fast the exhale and whether or not it's exhaled through the mouth or nose or both. When I was using 24mg I can guarantee there wasn't any when I exhaled.....I just didn't....

 

[TaketheRedPill]

ok....my question is(without the whole science) How much is released during exhale?

I'm interested in this question also.

(see: History of nicotine - Learn all facts about nicotine ) " The smoker who inhales the smoke gets about 90% of the nicotine in the bloodstream compared to 20% to 50% from smoke taken only into the mouth than exhaled."

Could it be reasonable at all then to guesstimate 10+% of the ingested nicotine is exhaled, for someone who is not 'holding it in' and is breathing/"simulating smoking" normally (mouth, then lung, then exhale), and up to 80% of the nicotine is exhaled for someone who is mouth-smoking (or primer-puffing) only???

Cigarettes have much less VG in their composition - does the presumed 'binding' of nicotine with PG/VG lessen nicotine transfer in lung tissue resulting in more nicotine-bound-to-PG/VG being exhaled, or can we expect the same percentages as are seen in cigarettes? Is there anything that would make e-cigarettes unique so as to expect to exhale much less nicotine than a cigarette?

TTRP

added: I really should clarify, the "10%+" should have read "10%+/-" not meaning to imply there is anywhere near 10% exhaled TTRP

 

[exogenesis]

Would be an interesting practical experiment to find out,
manually vape say 2 ml of 18mg/ml over say 18 hours,
exhaling into the vapour collector & then quantify,
should give better than just a ballpark figure.


Do-able, if I dedicate a whole day to doing it, and there's no
unforseen reasons why it would come out wrong.

So 2 ml = approx. 670 x 3 sec draws, start 9am finish midnight,
= 15 hours = 1 draw every 1 min 20 sec or so.

Have to use say 5 carts (gah) full and weigh each one before & after,
as well as the atty, also have to make sure there's no leaks,
through atty intake hole or to battery void.

Would help to use a manual (sealed) battery - only got 510's in those
(TW Mega-Titans), still would have to rest it vertically,
battery end up, so no leaks through atty.

Maybe spread it over more than one day, to get a greater vapour volume collected,
& practically draw rate would be somewhat more intermittent than perfectly uniform.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Would be an interesting practical experiment to find out,

Yes, it would be if you're up for it. Also, it would be interesting to see how much difference between a normal cig type exhale vs pause before exhale....or would that largely depend on the amount of VG in the mix?

 

[exogenesis]

Well I'd only be able to give personal preferences/habits on draw/hold times,
I tend to lung-draw hard (say 1 sec) on ciggies & hold say 2 secs.
With PV's I draw about 3 secs 50/50 mouth/lung & hold about 3 secs
(not sure why there's the difference).


Just thought of a practical hitch, which is evaporation, suppose I could set up
a control 510, being regularly pulse-heated (but not drawn on)
to see what the evap. rate is.


Also thought what the 'missing alkali' might be
(see a few posts up, last recovery result post),
it could be the cloudy collected vapour goes clear as I add the initial alkali,
so it's being used to re-dissolve the very fine particulate material in the vapour (?).

Actually this begs the question - what is the cloudiness,
poly-nicotine/nicotine break-down chemicals? (/semi-joke)

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well I'd only be able to give personal preferences/habits on draw/hold times,
I tend to lung-draw hard (say 1 sec) on ciggies & hold say 2 secs.
With PV's I draw about 3 secs 50/50 mouth/lung & hold about 3 secs
(not sure why there's the difference).


Just thought of a practical hitch, which is evaporation, suppose I could set up
a control 510, being regularly pulse-heated (but not drawn on)
to see what the evap. rate is.


Also thought what the 'missing alkali' might be
(see a few posts up, last recovery result post),
it could be the cloudy collected vapour goes clear as I add the initial alkali,
so it's being used to re-dissolve the very fine particulate material in the vapour (?).

Actually this begs the question - what is the cloudiness,
poly-nicotine/nicotine break-down chemicals? (/semi-joke)

Soap scum? Bathtub ring?

 

[exogenesis]

Hmmm, not sure what you're putting in your PV, soap flavour juice ?


I see what you meant by your previous post, i.e. do two or more of the
exhalation tests with different hold/exhale times.

Better do one first, to see hows it pans out, I'll see how it goes....

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hmmm, not sure what you're putting in your PV, soap flavour juice ?

What? Don't you like to make bubbles? (sigh)I was afraid it was just me.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I see what you meant by your previous post, i.e. do two or more of the
exhalation tests with different hold/exhale times.

Better do one first, to see hows it pans out, I'll see how it goes....

Ok . That's what I was after, true, but I also see the difficulty in trying to modify a set vape method for a day. My attention span is too short for that, but.....uh, but the....oh.....er, what were you saying?

 

[exogenesis]

Somehow I feel this is becoming a two man dialog,
but definately do appreciate the humour & moral support TV

Where's Kin & the theories ?? p)

Wondering if I can sustain motivation for prolonged experiments,
do we know all this already, cos it's obvious?
Or are we happy to tick along assuming the facts &/or don't care much.

Sure, this is sort of psuedo-science, but without loadsamoney for testing,
how/what else can we find out for ourselves, & is it worth doing?

Anyone got a spare GC/MS ?

 

[Mister]

I'm lurking and I bet there are others. I think it would be very very interesting to know how much nicotine is being exhaled. But it sure seems like a lot of trouble for you to go through.

If you could determine how much is exhaled, we'd be closer to knowing what's absorbed.

I would guess the difference between the amount inhaled and exhaled would mostly be absorbed. But there'd still be possible significant losses elsewhere. How much was oxidized or otherwise destroyed? How much exhaled over time during normal breathing?

Still, knowing the amount exhaled would be a significant increase in understanding.

 

[exogenesis]

OK, appreciate the interest Mister

Wonder if you're on to something about thinking there may be
further nicotine exhaled beyond the first exhale after a draw.


Practicalities:

If a draw is 30ml (3 sec = 0.003 ml juice),
but then you inhale a further ~500ml air (for a dedicated lung-hold vaper)
& the exhale is 5% CO2 and 5% water vapour (95% humidity),
then for 18 mg/ml juice one exhale could contain a max of:

0.05 mg nic, 50 mg CO2 (!), 20mg water.

I assume most of that CO2 would pass through the auto-vaper as gas,
but some must dissolve in the water to cause carbonic acid (H2CO3),
or at least bicarbonate (HCO3-, H+).

Looking at tables, 5% CO2 above water causes an equilibrium HCO3-/H+
concentration of 2.5x10-5 molar (& pH 4.6) = 0.0011 g/litre
- this is if there was no nic there, but since there is, a lot more CO2 is
going to dissolve as it acidifies the freebase nic.

The water vapour would most likely all get condensed & collected, I guess.

So say if all the nic. got exhaled & collected in the auto-vaper,
then during vaping of 2ml of 18 mg/ml nic. juice (about 670 breaths), I'd get:

36 mg nic, 13 g water and ??? g H2CO3

Which would be 0.0015 molar nicotine.

Question is then, does all that dissolved CO2 stop me quantifying the
nicotine by the titration method ?

Say an amount of CO2 dissolved equivalent to the amount of nicotine,
(i.e. much greater than would dissolve without the nicotine present)
then the titration-simulation software (Curtipot) says I should still get
a double inflection curve (if I add a small known amount caustic first)
so I should be able to quantify the nic

Added titration-acid in simulation appears to around 4ml,
just about enough to give some accuracy, so it's still worth a go.....

Not sure how to test the further exhalations, don't really want to
breath through the autovaper every breath, all day,
maybe just the first and second exhale would be enough?

 

[exogenesis]

Blast !

looking closer at the simulated curve, the HCO3/H+ titration point
does radically interfere with the nicotine titration point.
it's in about the same place pH-wise (damn).
Half of the 4 ml titre mentioned above would be due to the CO2.

So in fact I'd have to work out how much CO2 was dissolved, in order
to figure out how much nicotine was present.

Bit more difficult then, any ideas welcome....


edit : shame the obvious answer won't work,
i.e. do two runs, one with 18mg/ml juice & one with 0 mg/ml juice,
cos the nic. content will probably drastically effect the amount of CO2 dissolved - dang.

 

[Mister]

Blast !

looking closer at the simulated curve, the HCO3/H+ titration point
does radically interfere with the nicotine titration point.
it's in about the same place pH-wise (damn).
Half of the 4 ml titre mentioned above would be due to the CO2.

So in fact I'd have to work out how much CO2 was dissolved, in order
to figure out how much nicotine was present.

Bit more difficult then, any ideas welcome....


edit : shame the obvious answer won't work,
i.e. do two runs, one with 18mg/ml juice & one with 0 mg/ml juice,
cos the nic. content will probably drastically effect the amount of CO2 dissolved - dang.

Blast indeed.

I've been poking around the web trying to find any methods used to measure nicotine exhaled during smoking. There's surprisingly little that's visible. I found two studies whose summaries say they measured nicotine-in and nicotine-out but they're both subscription sites.