How will the Vaping Industry look in two years time ?

[Eskie]

It looks like the UK is trying to be reasonable in regulating products. @evan le'garde will the UK also adopt the other EU rules for vaping? I read they're planning things like child proof caps, anti leaking design, and limiting tanks to 2 ml in size. Will that apply in the UK as well?

If the US insists on regulating the market, they really should have approached it like that (although 2 ml max tanks will suck). All the FDA will accomplish if the regs remain in their present form is force folks to travel to Canada or Mexico to get their stuff, just like some people do now for prescription medications, as they are far cheaper there than under the restrictive market the FDA has created in the US. That, and taking group shopping trips to the UK.

I can see it now. Nicotine sniffing dogs in airports and border crossings to make sure you're not smuggling vape products into the US.

 

[evan le'garde]

Read here :

E-cigarettes: regulations for consumer products - Detailed guidance - GOV.UK

I did read somewhere, though having a problem remembering where, the uk government can interpret Eu rules as they see fit.

"ASH" says this in the first paragraph on their site :

In May 2016 the EU’s revised Tobacco Products Directive (TPD) will come into force. This revision included
many updates to regulations on tobacco products but also sets out new regulations covering e-cigarettes.
The UK Government has made clear that it will not be seeking to ‘gold plate’ the rules coming from the EU
and will implement them to create a minimum burden on business.

 

[evan le'garde]

I am beginning to think though that tank manufacturers and especially after market product producers will be able to get round the 2ml tank regulation by producing modification kits which could include larger 5 mil replaceable glass and longer structural components which could enable users to expand their existing 2ml reserviors at a very low cost. I'm just not sure how the law will be able to control this. Hopefully it isn't something they will be able to regulate. Buying a 2ml tank which complies with regulations is one thing, but to buy a modification kit could turn out to be a whole other ball of wax and completely legal. I just don't know !.

 

[sofarsogood]

If I could vote in the UK I'd use my vote to opt out of the EU. Vaping has made me a single issue voter. I'll vote for Trump because if I have to be miserable I want company.

Stockpiling for 10 years is relatively cheap and easy. Beyond that feels neurotic. I think I've got 10 years of fight in me. The anti vaping folks want ecigs banned while cigs remain available the same as always. Will they get that? Tune in next week for the next...

 

[evan le'garde]

Continuing my previous post, i suppose the same could be said in the USA. Not manufacturing and selling complete tanks which would be illegal. But being allowed to sell each component part seperately might actually be a way round the regulations and could essentially be the only way forward. I just don't know !.

 

[UnclePsyko]

I'm no Think Tank/Strategist by any means, but what's been going through my mind is perhaps the FDA is putting together some sort of case much like a District Attorney does when trying a criminal case.
If a drunk driver speeds down a street, looses control and plows into people on a sidewalk injuring 6 and killing one, the DA throws every single charge imaginable at the driver that would put him behind bars for life.
After arraignment, preliminary, meeting with defense council, disclosure, etc... most of the time they reach an agreement just before the case goes to court.
The DA agrees to drop the reckless driving, unlicensed operation, endangerment, not signaling before jumping the curb, whatever small stuff that added up would amount to life in prison, perhaps even a big one such as homicide and just agree to involuntary manslaughter and DUI.
The driver agrees and gets 15 yrs with possibility of parole after 5 years served.
Hopefully after many meetings, subpoenas and wrangling between both sides, an amended agreement could be met. It most likely wouldn't be ideal for us, but hopefully it would include a more realistic grandfathered clause and criteria that most manufacturers could meet.

It's too early to tell at this point, but I'm keeping a glimmer of hope that the situation will improve as the process moves on... but I'm still preparing for the worse.

 

[evan le'garde]

If you were to consider that the D.I.Y aspect of vaping seems to be being ignored by the FDA, and everyone else, then maybe there could be a work around for the entire industry. So that everything e cig related could be modular and each component part could be sold seperately and therefore avoid all regulations in a completely legal way. I just don't know !.

 

[skoony]

I don't believe it will be possible for the FDA to prevent online ordering from foreign vendors.
I don't believe it will be possible for the FDA to prevent substantial black markets - for juice and for small modders.

First of all let me say that I do not believe for the time being the FDA will concern itself
with anything DIY . If every thing is ordered by the parts and assembled by hand I do
not anticipate a problem obtaining any parts or any component of the juice even
nicotine. Assembled hardware and ready to sell juice however will be at issue and likely
banned unless it complies to the regulations. There is a two year grace period for complying.

The FDA will allow DIY because in cases where changes in law affect the behavior
90% of the population will comply. Notable exceptions being prohibition and seat belts.
If one makes an assumption by judging what happened with the regulation of alcohol by
observing the percentage of people actually making their own wine or beer. Although there
appears to be many and there are, that amount compared to those that just consume
is quite small. It's literally not worth the expense to eliminate and gives the FDA, and
other government entities opportunity to show there benevolence.

But make no mistake if the FDA determines in the future that DIY and or the black market
interferes with their ability to regulate the legitimate market by unduly encroaching on market
share they will shut it down. They can easily eliminate 99.9% of either market if they choose to
do so. All the processes are in place or soon will be in place due mostly to homeland security
issues. All that's needed is to add names and places to data bases if in fact this hasn't been
done already.

Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

@UnclePsyko An interesting analogy put inaccurate. We have been found guilty of
the charges and sentenced. Only Congress can overturn the sentence. The likelihood
of this happening is just as rare as in real criminal cases.
Regards
Mike

 

[evan le'garde]

In time maybe that's how the vaping industry will look. The whole thing became modular. Everything will be legally available to produce and buy as seperate component parts. Maybe the government won't go near it. Maybe that's how the industry is supposed to develop. As it stands i'm pretty sure these aspects have not been covered by any regulations, EU or anywhere else. It has probably been completely overlooked and is perfectly legal. No reason to automatically assume that the government will implement new regulations to stop this.

Illegal to produce and sell complete vaping equipment such as tanks and mods. But perfectly legal to own them !.

 

[moze229]

I'm no Think Tank/Strategist by any means, but what's been going through my mind is perhaps the FDA is putting together some sort of case much like a District Attorney does when trying a criminal case.
If a drunk driver speeds down a street, looses control and plows into people on a sidewalk injuring 6 and killing one, the DA throws every single charge imaginable at the driver that would put him behind bars for life.
After arraignment, preliminary, meeting with defense council, disclosure, etc... most of the time they reach an agreement just before the case goes to court.
The DA agrees to drop the reckless driving, unlicensed operation, endangerment, not signaling before jumping the curb, whatever small stuff that added up would amount to life in prison, perhaps even a big one such as homicide and just agree to involuntary manslaughter and DUI.
The driver agrees and gets 15 yrs with possibility of parole after 5 years served.
Hopefully after many meetings, subpoenas and wrangling between both sides, an amended agreement could be met. It most likely wouldn't be ideal for us, but hopefully it would include a more realistic grandfathered clause and criteria that most manufacturers could meet.

It's too early to tell at this point, but I'm keeping a glimmer of hope that the situation will improve as the process moves on... but I'm still preparing for the worse.

This, exactly. When any case is brought against another party, every charge that can possibly stick under even the most minute circumstance is tacked on. That's exactly what is happening with these proposed regulations. The idea is to throw EVERYTHING up against the wall, and then just see what sticks. People read the big bad document that they put out and when things in reality don't turn out that bad, everyone is happy. But, I don't expect this to be the first measure. There will likely be several 'rounds' of regulations over the years until everything is set up for maximum control and profit for govt. All done without anyone getting too huffy. Sure but slow is the method. You can't take everyone's freedoms and liberties away all at once - that would be outrage! But you can do it slow and methodically and you'll never hear a peep.

 

[UnclePsyko]

@UnclePsyko An interesting analogy put inaccurate. We have been found guilty of
the charges and sentenced. Only Congress can overturn the sentence. The likelihood
of this happening is just as rare as in real criminal cases.
Regards
Mike

Yeah, I hear you...
I do cover court cases a lot. Many times in repeat offender cases, they go balls to the wall on the defendant. Premeditated Murder or child abuse cases are almost a guarantee there will be little leniency.
But with that said, I'm astounded how many times I have to interview a victims family at the "Injustice" of the court system when a case similar to what I pointed to above occurs.
Do I think that is what's going to happen in our case? Well, no... not really, but it isn't totally out of the question, ya know?
With all the big advocates joining to attack the FDA regulations, perhaps it could be looked at as an appeal?

 

[BreSha6869]

It looks like the UK is trying to be reasonable in regulating products. @evan le'garde will the UK also adopt the other EU rules for vaping? I read they're planning things like child proof caps, anti leaking design, and limiting tanks to 2 ml in size. Will that apply in the UK as well?

If the US insists on regulating the market, they really should have approached it like that (although 2 ml max tanks will suck). All the FDA will accomplish if the regs remain in their present form is force folks to travel to Canada or Mexico to get their stuff, just like some people do now for prescription medications, as they are far cheaper there than under the restrictive market the FDA has created in the US. That, and taking group shopping trips to the UK.

I can see it now. Nicotine sniffing dogs in airports and border crossings to make sure you're not smuggling vape products into the US.

I am confident that Canada will be a pretty dark place for vapers in the coming months/couple of years as well. I would be astonished if juice is not heavily taxed in most/all Canadian provinces within the next 1-2 years if not sooner. Also, we are unsure if the recent FDA reg content will be embraced/considered by Canada in any way.

It is currently illegal to import any nicotine/tobacco products into Canada and it wouldn't be that difficult for the Canadian govt to broaden the laws to include vaping HW/accessories.

 

[Jdurand]

Once the hammer falls, if it does, this market will be different for sure.

With that being said, there is no way the government can shut down vaping. Ever hear of the very popular war on drugs? How's that working out for you?

You can get anything you want in this great country of ours, legal or not. We are a nation of smugglers and rebels, we always have been and always will be, it's in our nature. There is a certain population of sheep out there, they will be the ones using the high tax items they are left with. Many, many members here will be the ones who have all the secret connections to do whatever we want, whenever we want.

Get over yourselves big government, you just don't matter anymore.

 

[sonicbomb]

 

[Jman8]

A bit like this

Meanwhile, underground.....

 

[Butch]

 

[evan le'garde]

Questions in the House of Lords :

TheyWorkForYou

TheyWorkForYou

 

[crxess]

They are also setting up groups to prowl the net looking for illegal vape sales and such.

Nanny State or Dictatorship?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Nanny State or Dictatorship?

Keep you safe!

It is being grouped in with stuff under Homeland Security. At least on the customs stuff.

You do realize that mech mods can be made into pipe bombs with the proper Efest battery don't ya?