I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?

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rurwin

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As a thought experiment, imagine a 1000 Ohm coil that was charged with 100 volts at .1 amps, resulting in 10 watts. It only get warm in spite of the high voltage. Now imagine a 1000 Ohm coil at .1 volts but 100 amps. It would flame out almost instantly, even though it's still only 10 watts.
That doesn't make mathematical sense. If an emf of 0.1V produces 100A, then the coil is 1 milliohm, 0.001 ohms. If I try to build that with Kantal, I'll have a very small coil. If I build it with 0.8mm^2 copper wire, then it will be 5cm long. That size of conductor will take 100A without "flaming out". It would certainly get rather warm.

Meanwhile, that 1000 ohm coil... in order to make something with that kind of resistance, even Kanthal would have to be tiny, and very thin wires can only carry very small currents. So even 100mA may easily be difficult for that wire to carry.

The trouble with the comparison is that nobody has a feeling for these kind of numbers, it sounds sort of right, but it isn't.
 

tj99959

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    To everyone that commented recently that missed this critical part of the OP:
    The OP is asking about amps AT THE SAME POWER.



    That's the point! That is because of the build, not because of the amps. The OP is asking about amps.
    Resistance does NOT need to mean a significant difference in the dimensions of the coil, you can build two identical coil setups with vastly different resistances. At the same power, they will vape the same.



    You are totally off the rails and are now just derailing the discussion. You need to go back and read the OP's question.



    Please read the link again.

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...r-once-all-do-amps-matter-8.html#post13960874

    Here are the steam engine builds representing that post:

    Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
    Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators


    Without Amps THERE IS NO POWER, therefor Amps matter!

    AND, if you change the Amps, you will change the power. Every specific build at a specific voltage & power will require a specific Amperage.

    There are three factors to Ohms Law, you can not throw out 1/3 of the formula and declare it "not important". Without amps resistance doesn't matter either. All you have is a charge up battery sitting on a shelf!
     
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    rurwin

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    Without Amps THERE IS NO POWER, therefor Amps matter!

    AND, if you change the Amps, you will change the power. Every specific build at a specific voltage & power will require a specific Amperage.

    There are three factors to Ohms Law, you can not throw out 1/3 of the formula and declare it "not important". Without amps resistance doesn't matter either. All you have is a charge up battery sitting on a shelf!
    Of course Amps matter. Has dr g or anyone else said differently? I can't see what you are arguing about.

    We have shown you that we can have two builds, using identical mechanics but different electronics, where one is 0.33 ohms and one is 3 ohms. One of them takes 9A and the other takes 3A, and they both deliver 27W to identical wicks and airflow.

    The reason they both vape the same, is that each coil in the build is seeing the same voltage and the same amps in both builds. So far as the coils are concerned, the amps are the same, the volts are the same, the resistance is the same and the power is the same. However, when viewed from the mod, the voltage is different, the current is different and the resistance is different, but the power is the same, because the volts change in the opposite direction to the amps and the differences cancel out. 9V x 3A = 27W with a 3 ohm build, and 3V x 9A = 27W with a 0.33 ohm build.

    So it is possible to build an atty with different amps but the same power. Different amps does not equate to different power. It never has. The only trick is in designing two builds that will vape the same when one build is nine times the resistance of the other.
     

    tj99959

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    Of course Amps matter. Has dr g or anyone else said differently? I can't see what you are arguing about.

    We have shown you that we can have two builds, using identical mechanics but different electronics, where one is 0.33 ohms and one is 3 ohms. One of them takes 9A and the other takes 3A, and they both deliver 27W to identical wicks and airflow.

    The reason they both vape the same, is that each coil in the build is seeing the same voltage and the same amps in both builds. So far as the coils are concerned, the amps are the same, the volts are the same, the resistance is the same and the power is the same. However, when viewed from the mod, the voltage is different, the current is different and the resistance is different, but the power is the same, because the volts change in the opposite direction to the amps and the differences cancel out. 9V x 3A = 27W with a 3 ohm build, and 3V x 9A = 27W with a 0.33 ohm build.

    So it is possible to build an atty with different amps but the same power. Different amps does not equate to different power. It never has. The only trick is in designing two builds that will vape the same when one build is nine times the resistance of the other.

    Ah-er, maybe you should re-read the thread title!
    I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?

    Put your finger over the air hole on one of them and see if your two builds still vape the same.

    I have 6 PVs sitting on my desk ATM. All six are set up differently yet all 6 perform basically the same. But that is because of THERMODYNAMICS. If you change any one factor, be it resistance, amperage, airflow ......... ANYTHING ....... you change the thermodynamics.
    Every factor is equally important. and that includes amperage
     
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    AttyPops

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    Of course Amps matter. Has dr g or anyone else said differently? I can't see what you are arguing about.

    We have shown you that we can have two builds, using identical mechanics but different electronics, where one is 0.33 ohms and one is 3 ohms. One of them takes 9A and the other takes 3A, and they both deliver 27W to identical wicks and airflow.

    The reason they both vape the same, is that each coil in the build is seeing the same voltage and the same amps in both builds. So far as the coils are concerned, the amps are the same, the volts are the same, the resistance is the same and the power is the same. However, when viewed from the mod, the voltage is different, the current is different and the resistance is different, but the power is the same, because the volts change in the opposite direction to the amps and the differences cancel out. 9V x 3A = 27W with a 3 ohm build, and 3V x 9A = 27W with a 0.33 ohm build.

    So it is possible to build an atty with different amps but the same power. Different amps does not equate to different power. It never has. The only trick is in designing two builds that will vape the same when one build is nine times the resistance of the other.

    Yes. It has been said.
    Yes. It's in the title.
    Yes. It doesn't matter if you can theoretically produce the same vape with a different configuration. That's not the real question. See title.

    :facepalm:

    And please, when you partial quote me, don't exclude the "it's moot" points. Because the discussion we're (you and I) having is NOT the point. I'm trying to keep it focused on amps.

    And P.S.
    You forgot the 6 heat sinks vs 2.
     

    AzPlumber

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    That is for twisted wire. With parallel non-twisted strands you can have billions. ;)

    I just tested it with a bunch of zeros, and it showed me a coil more than six billion light years wide. :D

    The Quad Coil (Parallel) option is for four identical resistors in parallel. The program has no idea how you achieve that resistance only that there are four and they are all the same resistance.


    This is the description from Steam Engine for Quad Coil (parallel)
    In a multi coil setup, all coils must be identical. All four coils in parallel. Total resistance is quartered. (1⁄4 R)

     

    rurwin

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    Ah-er, maybe you should re-read the thread title!
    So the only person who doubts that amps matter is the OP, and everyone who answered said they did. What is the problem?

    Amps, volts and resistance make an inter-related triad. Change one and the others have to change to compensate. Any two define the third and any two define the power. The power together with the mechanical details -- coil configuration, wicking, airflow -- and the electrical details -- series, parallel or a combination -- define the vape qualities.

    Current is important, but altering the current does not necessarily change the vape quality. It usually will, but it can be arranged not to. It requires two variables to define power, and current by itself does not do so. Just as vaping cannot happen without current, it cannot happen without resistance and voltage. If you have current without resistance, then nothing will get hot enough to make vapour. Changing the current changes the voltage and power unless the resistance also changes, just as changing the voltage changes the current and power unless the resistance changes. If the resistance changes, then the vape quality will also change because the mechanical details -- the coil size -- change. So on its face, changing either voltage or current will change the vape quality, either because the power changes, or because the coil dimensions change.

    This is the situation that we all know -- changing any one factor changes the vape. Current and voltage are both exactly as important as each other. If we want to change the vape, it doesn't matter which one we control, either one will change the other. They are exactly symmetric. But they are the inverse of each other. We can put coils in parallel and keep the voltage constant, or we can put coils in series and keep the current constant. One coil will always vape differently than two coils, but we can build two coils in either parallel or series and keep the power the same. Other factors being equal, two coils producing the same power will behave the same, and it doesn't matter if we do it by keeping the voltage constant and increasing the current or by keeping the current constant and increasing the voltage.
     

    Dampmaskin

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    The Quad Coil (Parallel) option is for four identical resistors in parallel. The program has no idea how you achieve that resistance only that there are four and they are all the same resistance.


    This is the description from Steam Engine for Quad Coil (parallel)
    In a multi coil setup, all coils must be identical. All four coils in parallel. Total resistance is quartered. (1⁄4 R)


    Yes, that is the multi-coil function under "Setup". There is also a twisted/parallel option under "Material and profile".

    You can combine these options if you want to design something like a quad coil, where each coil has a number of parallel or twisted strands.
     

    AzPlumber

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    Yes, that is the multi-coil function under "Setup". There is also a twisted/parallel option under "Material and profile".

    You can combine these options if you want to design something like a quad coil, where each coil has a number of parallel or twisted strands.

    You confused me when you stated that section was for twisted wire. I see now that you are familiar with the fact that it can be used for single or multi-wire coils. I think a lot of confusion comes from the terminology. Where parallel can represent different concepts.
     

    dr g

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    Without Amps THERE IS NO POWER, therefor Amps matter!!

    This is ridiculous and pedantic. The OP specifies the SAME POWER, so the question is whether how that power is reached matters PER SE. In and of itself.

    The answer is no it does not, the build is everything. Between coil A and coil B at the same power, you can have for example, faster ramp time, slower ramp time, or the same ramp time; more vapor volume, less vapor volume, or the same volume; and the same for every vaping parameter, regardless of the resistances of coil A and coil B and subsequent amp draws.

    The thing that determines how coil A behaves in relation to coil B for every parameter, is the BUILD, not the resistance of the coil(s). Because we are controlling for power, by default the same heat energy is being produced by each coil rig.
     

    dr g

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    It's not THE BUILD. It's THE PHYSICS. Ask Sheldon Cooper.

    Physics covers everything. Including THE BUILD. So, obviously, it's THE PHYSICS.
    So, using your 'logic'...The BUILD means nothing. Just like amps.

    Because, it's THE PHYSICS.

    The electrical physics don't matter. Because we are holding power constant, they are irrelevant. Which is the answer to the OP's question.

    The BUILD's physics matter, which, in the terminology of the OP, means the build matters but not the amps.
     

    Maurice Pudlo

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    Of course Amps matter. Has dr g or anyone else said differently? I can't see what you are arguing about.

    We have shown you that we can have two builds, using identical mechanics but different electronics, where one is 0.33 ohms and one is 3 ohms. One of them takes 9A and the other takes 3A, and they both deliver 27W to identical wicks and airflow.

    The reason they both vape the same, is that each coil in the build is seeing the same voltage and the same amps in both builds. So far as the coils are concerned, the amps are the same, the volts are the same, the resistance is the same and the power is the same. However, when viewed from the mod, the voltage is different, the current is different and the resistance is different, but the power is the same, because the volts change in the opposite direction to the amps and the differences cancel out. 9V x 3A = 27W with a 3 ohm build, and 3V x 9A = 27W with a 0.33 ohm build.

    So it is possible to build an atty with different amps but the same power. Different amps does not equate to different power. It never has. The only trick is in designing two builds that will vape the same when one build is nine times the resistance of the other.

    The reason they don't vape the same is as follows

    Diameter: 1.3mm
    Leg Length: 5mm
    AWG: 22 kanthal a1

    0.33 ohm dual coil parallel, heat flux at 27W is 90mW/mm^2 (148.2mm wire used), wraps: 18/17, wick 14.958mm^3, 6.016mW/mm^3
    0.33 ohm single coil, heat flux at 27W is 180mW/mm^2 (74.1mm wire used) wraps: 9/8, wick 7.265mm^3, 24.776mW/mm^3

    3 ohm dual coil parallel, heat flux at 27W is 10mW/mm^2 (1347mm wire used) wraps: 165/164, wick 140.613mm^3, 0.071mW/mm^3
    3 ohm single coil, heat flux at 27W is 20mW/mm^2 (673.5mm wire used) wraps: 82/81, wick 69.665mm^3, 0.287mW/mm^3

    Not one of these builds is even remotely similar, all push 27W.

    Power delivered as quoted:
    9V x 3A = 27W with a 3 ohm build, and 3V x 9A = 27W with a 0.33 ohm build.

    Maurice

    note: in dual coil notes above W is total delivered, mW/mm^2 is per coil, wraps are per coil, wick mm^3 is per coil, mW/mm^3 is per coil.
     

    Maurice Pudlo

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    I do believe he was talking about 3 1ohm coils in series vs the same 3 in parallel.. Same surface area and what not in both configurations.

    Ok I'll look it over.

    Maurice

    Edit: close, very close, but to get identical mW/mm^2 results between 3 1ohm coils in series vs the same 3 in parallel you have to mess with the leg length a tiny bit 0.1mm to be exact.

    Diameter: 1.3mm
    Leg Length: 5mm
    AWG: 22 kanthal a1

    Series outputs 59mW/mm^2 at 3ohms (1ohm per coil)
    Parallel outputs 60mW/mm^2 at 0.333ohms (1ohm per coil)

    For all intense and purposes I can see how the two would vape nearly the same.

    Maurice
     
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    beckdg

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    A (bipolar) transistor is a variable current source. There is nothing more complex about building a variable current source than building a variable voltage source. It is variable power that requires you to measure the load and control one of the others to produce the right power.

    There is a VA device out there right now, the Talifun Eye.

    The answer to the OP's question was given on the third page. It is possible, although unusual to create a high resistance build that vapes the same as a low resistance build when fed the same power. But in order to truly understand it, you need more than ohms law. You need Kirchhoff's circuit laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as well.

    Let's build three identical one ohm coils. Let's also say we have an accommodating dripper where we can wire these coils into either series or parallel configurations without changing the wicking or airflow. That's not impossible, but it might be a challenge.

    When we wire them in parallel and feed them with 3V, all the coils have 3 volts across them. We can do ohms law for each in turn and find that they each take 3 amps. By Kirchhoff''s current law, we can see that the mod is having to produce 9 amps, and 9 x 3 = 27W. However each of the coils is seeing 3 x 3 = 9W. There are three coils, so 9W+9W+9W = 27W.

    Now let's wire the coils in series. In this case the same current is going through all the coils. There's nowhere else for it to go. Let's say that that current is 3 amps. By ohms law, we know that the voltage across one coil will be 3 volts. Kirfchhoff's voltage law tells us that if all the three coils have 3V across them, then the mod must be putting out 3V+3V+3V = 9V. So the total power is 9V x 3A = 27W. However each coil is still seeing 3V and 3A and is still producing 9W.

    So whether they are in series or parallel, each coil always sees the same voltage and the same current. If the individual coils are all seeing exactly the same voltage and current in both situations and if, as we stated earlier, the wicking and airflow is the same, then the vape will be identical between the two situations.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Variable Current control has one major advantage. If you are building coils with the same type and gauge of wire, then the same current setting will give you the same power per millimetre, the same power per mm2 (of surface area) and the same power per mm3 (of wire).

    If your wicking and airflow are efficient, then you can use the same current setting no matter how big or small you build your coil.

    Most people, I think, use only a small handful of different sizes of wire, mostly of the same type. It would be simple to remember that for 28AWG Kanthal I like, say, three amps, but for 30AWG I prefer two amps.
    Eureka!!!

    That is all.
     

    dr g

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    Ok I'll look it over.

    Maurice

    Edit: close, very close, but to get identical mW/mm^2 results between 3 1ohm coils in series vs the same 3 in parallel you have to mess with the leg length a tiny bit 0.1mm to be exact.

    Diameter: 1.3mm
    Leg Length: 5mm
    AWG: 22 kanthal a1

    Series outputs 59mW/mm^2 at 3ohms (1ohm per coil)
    Parallel outputs 60mW/mm^2 at 0.333ohms (1ohm per coil)

    For all intense and purposes I can see how the two would vape nearly the same.

    Maurice

    This is pedantry. Coils can be "rewired" below the deck in an appropriate atomizer without touching the coils at all, if that helps you visualize.

    EDIT: Bowing out of a ridiculous theoretical argument.

    The OP may have presented a theoretical circumstance, but subsequent examples have been realistic, and regardless the basic principle is not only not theoretical, but applies to every atomizer.
     
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