I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?

[Maurice Pudlo]

Okay back to the question at hand. I have reconstructed our conversation albiet a bit abbreviated but hopefully you can follow. My question as stated in the quote below. What differences would Steam Engine have to account for?















As you can clearly see you agree that the parallel coils are identical regardless of their orientation within the circuit. One does not have a shorter wire or increased leg mass just because both coils were wrapped at the same time around the same wick. One does not have longer wire or less leg mass just because the coils were wrapped separately. I ask again, what differences would Steam Engine have to account for.

Steam engine does not account for the use of two or more wires in the making of a parallel coil, the user can if he or she wishes determine the width of two wires and any space left and input this in the coil space data section, this is the only way steam engine will output some correct numbers for parallel coils. That's not very intuitive.

A parallel coil is larger in total width by at least the width of one wire and wire space, more depending on number of wires used. This is not calculated for by steam engine.

Steam engine does not calculate for 5 wire parallel coils or two three wire parallel coils etc. All easily accomplished builds without support on steam engine.

Maurice

 

[Midniteoyl]

Nope. If we have the same watts we have the same heat production. Simple.
Heating elements are characterized by wattage, not by coil length.
As for vapor production – it could be a bit different story, it can depend on configuration of coil, but which setup is more effective I have no idea. Short coil – more concentrated heat, long coil – it is a bit more distributed.

Longer coil will have more emissivity..

 

[windxrunner]

They matter. More amps drawn to achieve the same wattage = coils heat up much quicker. You can hit that coil as soon as you fire your mod, with lots of vapor immediately, but it drains your battery much quicker. Less amps to get that same wattage, you have to wait a sec before it starts "chuckin the vapor" (lol). The question is, do you care?

 

[dr g]

To everyone that commented recently that missed this critical part of the OP:
The OP is asking about amps AT THE SAME POWER.

But they won't have the same surface area or heat density (watts per cubit mm) or thermal lag.

That's the point! That is because of the build, not because of the amps. The OP is asking about amps.
Resistance does NOT need to mean a significant difference in the dimensions of the coil, you can build two identical coil setups with vastly different resistances. At the same power, they will vape the same.

Steam engine does not account for the use of two or more wires in the making of a parallel coil, the user can if he or she wishes determine the width of two wires and any space left and input this in the coil space data section, this is the only way steam engine will output some correct numbers for parallel coils. That's not very intuitive.

A parallel coil is larger in total width by at least the width of one wire and wire space, more depending on number of wires used. This is not calculated for by steam engine.

Steam engine does not calculate for 5 wire parallel coils or two three wire parallel coils etc. All easily accomplished builds without support on steam engine.

Maurice

You are totally off the rails and are now just derailing the discussion. You need to go back and read the OP's question.

again we are not talking about the build,we are talking a straight up comparison between similarly built coils.
take 2 one ohm coils in series. at ten volts you get 5 amps and 50 watts total power.
take a single one ohm coil at 7.05 volts for 7.05 amps and 49.7 watts of power.
the single coil is dissipating more power per wrap of coil,hence more heat per wrap,heat being the main factor when
generating vapor.

the voltage source does not care how many single coils are in a series resistance just the total resistance.
we are not load balancing here,amperage does matter.

Please read the link again.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...r-once-all-do-amps-matter-8.html#post13960874

Here are the steam engine builds representing that post:

http://www.steam-engine.org/coil.asp?a=true&s=dp&r=0.5&awg=28
http://www.steam-engine.org/coil.asp?a=true&s=ds&r=2&awg=28

 

[Midniteoyl]

Allow me to elaborate: I've been vaping for over a year and every time I've ever heard this discussion come up several different viewpoints are claimed with equal levels of confidence and self assuredness lol so I still don't know what to believe. The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case. Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

to to summarize both builds have the Same power ie wattage from their respective coils, despite very different resistances. The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery, so does amperage effect Vape experience or will these to builds be identical in flavor, vapor production, vapor density, and throat hit? I honestly look forward to your responses and any insight or informed explanation anyone can provide on the subject. Thanks in advance and remember to always Vape safely and with the most enjoyment that's practical as well as socially acceptable lol
Keep on vaping all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls) =]

Look at it like this. If the resistance is increased from some small value to an eventual open the current starts off large and eventually drops to zero when the resistance has reached an open. No current flow means no energy transfer and hence no power is delivered to the resistance. Now if instead the resistance is started off large and decreased towards zero Ohms the current increases proportionally. This means more charges with a kinetic energy are being pushed through the resistance per unit time, more energy transfer in a given amount of time means more power is delivered.

I'm not arguing with any one reply here, I just want to make this easier for the original poster of the question.

It is because the greater the resistance the more likely collisions will occur with the charge flow transferring some of the kinetic energy from an electron and generating heat in the process, but far less often because the amount of charge that is flowing is perhaps half of what it was. When the resistance is decreased, more charges can flow per unit time and therefore transfer more energy into the resistance than before. It is less likely that collisions will occur with a lower resistance for the same charge flowing through it, but given the greater amount of charges that make it through the lower resistance, the collisions that do occur happen more often because there are so many more of them. In colliding with the resistive material they transfer some of their kinetic energy into heat within the resistance.

So, in summary, the reason a lower resistance takes more energy from the source per unit time (power) is because more charge is allowed to flow when the resistance is lowered therefore transferring more energy from the source to the resistive load. This is the "visual" way of looking at it.


Math:

Heat generated by resistance (or friction) is proportional to the resistance and the current (Joules 1st law), and the current is proportional to the resistance and voltage (Ohms Law).

To calculate Q (Heat Transfer in Joules) we use the formula:

Joules 1st Law: Q = I²R (Heat generated is proportional to current squared multiplied by the resistance.)

To calculate voltages, currents and resistances we use the formula: Ohm’s Law: V=IR, I=V/R, R=V/I

To calculate P (Power in watts): P = VI

Notice how Joules (heat) is dependent on the square of the current times resistance? Bottom line, heat generated from resistance is dependent on current flow. Lower resistances would allow more current, more friction and thus more heat.

 

[dr g]

Lower resistances would allow more current, more friction and thus more heat.

Not at the same power ...

 

[Midniteoyl]

Not at the same power ...

What? Elaborate please..

 

[dr g]

What? Elaborate please..

Not sure what's confusing about that. If we are controlling for power, the results are the same by definition.

Using the OP's example, .25 ohms, 16 amps = 64 watts. 16a x 16a x .25 ohms = 64 watts
3 ohms, 4.62 amps = 64 watts. 4.62a x 4.62a x 3 ohms = 64 watts

Any difference in vape will come down to build.

 

[beckdg]

What? Elaborate please..

Original question was simple. If watts were equal would current determine the vape?

The answer is no regardless how difficult it was to understand the question.

 

[edyle]

Allow me to elaborate: I've been vaping for over a year and every time I've ever heard this discussion come up several different viewpoints are claimed with equal levels of confidence and self assuredness lol so I still don't know what to believe. The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case. Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

to to summarize both builds have the Same power ie wattage from their respective coils, despite very different resistances. The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery, so does amperage effect Vape experience or will these to builds be identical in flavor, vapor production, vapor density, and throat hit? I honestly look forward to your responses and any insight or informed explanation anyone can provide on the subject. Thanks in advance and remember to always Vape safely and with the most enjoyment that's practical as well as socially acceptable lol
Keep on vaping all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls) =]

Definitetive answer:
If they are both built with the same gauge wire then yes they should be the same.
The low ohm would be multiple coils; the high ohm one would be one long coil. the current though each of the multicoils would be the same as the current through the long coil.

 

[Tbev]

This is the lamest conversation I've read in a while, I don't even think that the op is following anymore. Lol...

 

[AttyPops]

To everyone that commented recently that missed this critical part of the OP:
The OP is asking about amps AT THE SAME POWER.



That's the point! That is because of the build, not because of the amps. The OP is asking about amps.
Resistance does NOT need to mean a significant difference in the dimensions of the coil, you can build two identical coil setups with vastly different resistances. At the same power, they will vape the same.

Look. I can't make it any simpler. If you know 2 variables, you know them all (of watts, ohms, volts, amps). You don't know the full heat characteristics unless you know more about the wire. But aside from that for the moment:

You've held power constant. That's one variable that's known. You'd also have to vary one of the other variables accordingly. You don't get to vary amps. You can vary ohms. You can vary voltage. You don't get to vary amps. Amps are a result (really so are watts, as dependent on volts and ohms).

There are no amp adjustable devices. Amps are more or less a calculation. A result. Of course, that's for a theoretical battery that can deliver the requested amps.

Sigh. The "build" (partially) determines the amps. The Build determines the ohms. The build (partially) determines the watts. The build determines the cubic mm of area heated....
The battery determines the voltage. Also has an amp limit.

What's your point? Here's the OP's question again:

Allow me to elaborate: I've been vaping for over a year and every time I've ever heard this discussion come up several different viewpoints are claimed with equal levels of confidence and self assuredness lol so I still don't know what to believe. The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case. Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

to to summarize both builds have the Same power ie wattage from their respective coils, despite very different resistances. The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery, so does amperage effect Vape experience or will these to builds be identical in flavor, vapor production, vapor density, and throat hit? I honestly look forward to your responses and any insight or informed explanation anyone can provide on the subject. Thanks in advance and remember to always Vape safely and with the most enjoyment that's practical as well as socially acceptable lol
Keep on vaping all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls) =]

And you partial quoted (because you were trying to emphasize a point buuuuut you) left out the remainder which says you can't view this stuff in terms of one isolated variable. They are all interrelated.

The OP's question is NOT "does 'the build' determine anything.
Let me say that again. He wasn't asking about 'the build'.

In order for him to give the two examples he gave, 'the build' would have to be different. By definition. His definition.

However, you can't separate all that out, and also the thermodynamics of it all, and view amps in isolation and then ask "do amps matter?".

It's a fallacious question.
-or-
he varied the resistance to change the amps at the same wattage. So...it's a different coil. Different is different. And that doesn't even get into using different wire, or different coil shapes, and the thermodynamics of it.

Basically, different is different. Which is what we've said all along. So yeah....'the build' is different.

 

[Dampmaskin]

Steam engine does not account for the use of two or more wires in the making of a parallel coil, the user can if he or she wishes determine the width of two wires and any space left and input this in the coil space data section, this is the only way steam engine will output some correct numbers for parallel coils. That's not very intuitive.

A parallel coil is larger in total width by at least the width of one wire and wire space, more depending on number of wires used. This is not calculated for by steam engine.

Steam engine does not calculate for 5 wire parallel coils or two three wire parallel coils etc. All easily accomplished builds without support on steam engine.

Maurice

I'm not sure if I follow. See this example of a five strand parallel coil on Steam Engine. Is something missing or wrong in the results?

 

[AzPlumber]

There are no amp adjustable devices.

AttyPops, ^^^This^^^ is the purpose of the OP's exercise. Do amps matter where we need a variable amperage device?

 

[AttyPops]

AttyPops, ^^^This^^^ is the purpose of the OP's exercise. Do amps matter where we need a variable amperage device?

?

How do you build a variable amperage device? In electronics?

You can have VV. You can have VR even. You can have VW.

How can you have VA by itself? You'd have to have a varying load or something. Or you're just varying voltage, similar to what VW does.

I don't know that setting amperage tells you much without volts (or ohms). And since volts x amps = watts, that's what VW does (and it probably varies the voltage to adjust it).

 

[rondasherrill]

?

How do you build a variable amperage device? In electronics?

You can have VV. You can have VR even. You can have VW. How can you have VA?

Exactly! If you wanted to get technical you could develop a Variable amps device, but it would be ridiculous. A Variable Amps device would still just be a variable wattage device. Because the output of power based on a known voltage and resistance is still what is being controlled. The only thing that would actually change is the numbers displayed.

 

[AttyPops]

Look at it this way...amps are a count. But they don't say how hard it's moving (like push, or mass/momentum, or whatever analogy you want). The work done is a function of the count and the momentum.

1000 feathers flowing out of a tube per second does a lot less work turning a wheel than does 1000 bowling balls. The amps (1000) are the same in each example.

But really, you can just think of amps as part and parcel of the whole thing. Viewing it in isolation is the mistake.

 

[AzPlumber]

Steam engine does not account for the use of two or more wires in the making of a parallel coil, the user can if he or she wishes determine the width of two wires and any space left and input this in the coil space data section, this is the only way steam engine will output some correct numbers for parallel coils. That's not very intuitive.

This is exactly why the wrap space section is there. It accounts for the space between coils regardless of how that space is achieved.

A parallel coil is larger in total width by at least the width of one wire and wire space, more depending on number of wires used. This is not calculated for by steam engine.

Two single wire coils can be made with the same wrap space as the two coils wrapped at the same time.

Steam engine does not calculate for 5 wire parallel coils or two three wire parallel coils etc. All easily accomplished builds without support on steam engine.

Steam Engine calculates up to four parallel coils.

 

[AzPlumber]

?

How do you build a variable amperage device? In electronics?

You can have VV. You can have VR even. You can have VW.

How can you have VA by itself? You'd have to have a varying load or something. Or you're just varying voltage, similar to what VW does.

I don't know that setting amperage tells you much without volts (or ohms). And since volts x amps = watts, that's what VW does (and it probably varies the voltage to adjust it).

So we agree, Thank you

 

[AttyPops]

So we agree, Thank you

Sure. As long as you're saying "they ALL matter, since they are not separable (they are interrelated) and you can't view amps in isolation and then ask a question like that."