I'm a sinner with questions..

[providencewouldhaveit]

Thank you Imrasch. That was a good, God honoring post. To the man that just recieved Christ. I have tears of joy and will be praying for you as I'm sure others here are or have. When you are fisrt called to be a son a lot of temptation can come your way but the Lord who called you is able also to uphold you.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Southern Gent]

I'll say it one final time. You have been given scriptural references concerning salvation. I have seen hypothetical examples and emotional conviction for not accepting what is in God's word. It was given by the authority of the apostles acting as authorized agents through the authority of Christ. The Bible clearly says that baptism is for the remission of sin. There can be no forgiveness without the remission of sin. Paul says "in baptism one puts on Christ". You do not "put on Christ" in repentance. You do not "put on Christ" in prayer. Now, if you don't put on Christ you can not be saved.
Roman 6
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin.

 

[blondeambition3]

Let me preface the following with how much honor I have for you Southern Gent and the zealous way in which you are imparting the Word of God to those of us on this forum. I can tell you have spent much time, thought and prayer in your endeavor to rightly divide the word for the readers here. I thank you for spurring me on to revisit this subject once again.

This is a good discussion, and I think we have run into a snag of different doctrinal beliefs among our believers. However, it is a foundational difference and we must use exceedingly great care in dividing this truth..... a few questions to ponder:

1) Can a person be saved without being baptized? Say it's the very last minute of their life and they recognize their immediate need, so they say Lord I have failed you, please accept me. Is it possible for that person to be saved without water baptism?

2) A person accepts Jesus in their heart, but their church hasn't had a water baptism service yet...it's been a day since they accepted Jesus and then they die in a car accident....Is this person's acceptance of Jesus "acceptable" as righteous because of their faith? OR, because they did not follow with the "works" aspect, is their "faith" and the blood of Jesus discounted as being insufficient?

For some reason I am reminded of what the outward sign was for those that served God and followed the law before Jesus....that sign was by circumcision. But now we are under the circumcision of the heart. When exactly does that circumcision take place? And who exactly is the one who performs that circumcision, us or the Lord?

Are we going back to works here?

I fully agree that baptism is a huge part of obedience, following an instruction. The benefits are immeasurable, I remember my baptism...it was awesome! Standing there realizing that I was outwardly expressing an act that had already happened inwardly (and believe me, the change was instantaneous..the moment I accepted), it strengthened my faith in that I died to sin the instant I believed that the blood of Jesus was sufficient. My baptism took place months after I was saved.

When I try to wrap my heart and mind around to the way that baptism has been portrayed as eqaul to what Jesus did for us it is very hard to swallow, actually painful to read. Is it my works again...are we on the merry-go-round one more time? The law proved how impossible it is for us in the flesh to please God. It is the blood that covers our unrighteousness, not our acts on the beliefs that the blood covers our unrighteousness. There would have been no reason for Jesus to shed his blood if it was as easy as stepping into some water and have a few words spoken over me.

In Galatians 3, Paul dealt severely with those who were going back to the works:

1) You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3) Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4) Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5) Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6) Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8) The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9) So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14) He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

(Eph. 2:8-9) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

Are we de-emphasizing the Blood of Christ as an all-sufficient payment for sin, believing that the blood of Jesus is not really sufficient to “cleanse us from all sin”? Instead, believing that salvation must be obtained through both the good work of Christ on the cross, and through the good work of man in baptism. We need to be careful to not hold to this doctrine, believing that Man therefore becomes a “co-redeemer” together with Christ. It is not salvation by the grace of God plus the works of man...

Yes, baptism is a commandment and an act of obedience and I encourage all who believe on his name to do so...... but His blood is more than sufficient to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness.

“…the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (I John 1:7)

Love of the Father

The only thing this post needed was an 'altar call' afterward that's all I gotta say!
seriously lmrasch, this beautifully embodies what the Bible & the Holy Spirit has revealed to me personally..... just awesome!

 

[Jason_in_nc]

SG, I too appreciate the discussion. We are supposed to sharpen one another after all, so these discussions are most always a good thing!

I'm not sure if you read the links I have provided yet, but they provide very sufficient biblical proof for what we are saying.

One of the things they note is that Baptism existed before Christianity. John the Baptist was also Baptizing... before Christ had died. So I don't think you can excuse the thief on the cross as being under some other rules.

Baptism was used as a symbol of conversion again, before Christianity formally came along. What we see in scripture is that Christians were commanded to carry out that same act... an act that all Jews would know, but for Christ.

When we look at all of scripture together, the picture given is that salvation is by faith through grace, and baptism is a symbol of the work that Christ did in us. But baptism is no more a part of the saving work than saying, "take an aspirin for a headache" means that aspirins CAUSE headaches.

By the time you are Baptized, God has already finished his work of salvation.

 

[KYFlyer67]

Great thread with super questions. I don't believe in sin so I can't answer you except to say that my God is a God of love and peace and sees everyone in their perfection.

AMEN!!! Well stated and I believe you are right.

 

[lmrasch]

Oh my....I must apologize to Instigator for taking part in interrupting this thread with what has become a debate, please forgive me . I do not want to lose sight of the work that God has done among us only to get caught up in disagreement with a fellow believer on biblical interpretation.

I am looking forward to some hearty helpings of Word study together outside of this thread and if the opportunity arises we may be able to finish our discussion at another time SG .

Peace to all......

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Oh my....I must apologize to Instigator for taking part in interrupting this thread with what has become a debate, please forgive me . I do not want to lose sight of the work that God has done among us only to get caught up in disagreement with a fellow believer on biblical interpretation.

I am looking forward to some hearty helpings of Word study together outside of this thread and if the opportunity arises we may be able to finish our discussion at another time SG .

Peace to all......

Very well said. I'll follow your example.

 

[Bigham1]

Where do other religions fall into, when the Last Judgment or Rapture begins?

Examples :

Japan, China, Ancient Maya, Toltec, and other civilizations that had no knowledge of what we believe to be God and sins as we know them. Will they all be doomed to eternal Hell or given a chance to repent when in line waiting at the gates of Heaven?

Do I have to repent every time I think a Girl is Hot or I undress her with my mind?

I'm not a very religious man as you can see.. I go to church every chance I get, maybe 6 times a year. I'm a sinner I know, but I don't want you to pray for me!! I Just need a few answers to questions I have, thank you.


Please, Don't Bash Me!!

It depends on which faith you are looking at it from. Many religions think their religion is the only faith that will go to haven and if you dont follow their religion you are going to hell basically.Christians, jews, muslims and others think that way. So it really does depend on which religion you are looking at it from.

I know everyone will tell me I am wrong or how their religion is the one true religion.

Christianity says that having impure thoughts about someone is as bad as doing it. Jesus said that if a married man has impure thoughts about another woman he has already committed adultry. So yes you are supposed to repent for that.

You shouldn't get bashed for asking a question. If someone bashes you they are clearly not a christian. For the bible teaches us that we must go out and save lives. It also says that we should be kind to everyone. Love thy neighbor.

 

[blondeambition3]

I have interpreted the most important act as a believer in Christ is as Bigham1 states and that is 'Love thy Neighbor'... as even AFTER Salvation we 'sin' if we confess to be Christians yet do not have love one for the other. We're called to share the great commission of sharing the Gospel of Christ. Can I end my participation here with this Scripture from Corinthians 13? (Let me add I love & respect everyone's opinions & theologies, but like Imrasch I am sorry I've participated in a debate among the Brethren - whom I love and cherish - and I too look forward to the studying of the word with many of you!)

If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
...and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.

Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.

It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth

It covers all things, - (even theological differences & disagreements! lol)
it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things,
it endures in all things.

Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.

For we know in part and we prophecy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.

When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant;

when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.

For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.

But now remains faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

Just an *afterthought - If we shine the light of Christ's Love by sharing the Gospel and it leads one to Salvation, doesn't GOD promise he'll finish the work He's begun? (Phillipians 1:6)After all, aren't we just vessels He uses for HIS purpose of bringing souls into His Kingdom? If that's the case, then the HOLY SPIRIT of the almighty God will lead new converts to the Baptismal.

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Can we learn to just trust God at His word? Maybe? A little?
I so L♥ve the body of Christ! Even when there are differences. It keeps us all sharp! ♥

 

[LisaLisa]

Ok, I just started a thread on baptism so we can respect the OP here, our new brother in Christ Jesus. Please let us continue to conversation on baptism, I think it's a very important issue, and I still have questions, and I'm sure many others do as well.

 

[LisaLisa]

Amen Blonde and Bigham, Love is the most important thing! Jesus made it soooo clear

 

[Southern Gent]

SG, I too appreciate the discussion. We are supposed to sharpen one another after all, so these discussions are most always a good thing!

I'm not sure if you read the links I have provided yet, but they provide very sufficient biblical proof for what we are saying.

.

Hey Jason,
In fact I did read the article that you provided. I have read such articles many times over the years. The problem is that they offer absolutely no Biblical proof for what they say. The author has broken every hermeneutic law ever given to arrive at his conclusion. There are laws to Biblical interpretation, yes indeed a science of which the author has had seemingly very little education. In eight years of undergraduate and postgraduate Biblical studies, I have never met a credible theologian who would agree with his exegesis and hermeneutic. Salvation is by faith but not faith only. The authors premise falls apart with the acceptance of the latter all the while ignoring the previously commanded. There is an authority issue here. Jesus said "all authority heaven/earth has been given to me". Jesus delegated this authority to the apostles. The authority given to the apostles by the Son of God is completely ignored by the interpretation. Without authority or form of an authorized agent the doctrine/teaching can not be accepted as truth. The debate has turned to baptism in and of itself. Do you see that the whole issue is not that of simply baptism? It is authority. No matter what we think of baptism, it was given as authoritative by Peter on Pentecost for the remission of sin. Perhaps as we continue study we can teach and learn more not only about the Bible but the interpretation methods. Debate is indeed good for the mind, body & soul.

Bigham, the "please don't bash me" says a lot concerning what people expect of us.

It is the Lord's Day, my peeps will be here and I'll shall bring forth hell fire & brimstone........nah..probably not.


Lisa..can you move this to the new thread? It was done before I saw your post. Thanks Sis.

 

[blondeambition3]

Ok, I just started a thread on baptism so we can respect the OP here, our new brother in Christ Jesus. Please let us continue to conversation on baptism, I think it's a very important issue, and I still have questions, and I'm sure many others do as well.

Yes! Great idea Lisa as sometimes these threads get so long we 'forget' the original post and go

- sorry all

 

[LisaLisa]

Hey Jason,
In fact I did read the article that you provided. I have read such articles many times over the years. The problem is that they offer absolutely no Biblical proof for what they say. The author has broken every hermeneutic law ever given to arrive at his conclusion. There are laws to Biblical interpretation, yes indeed a science of which the author has had seemingly very little education. In eight years of undergraduate and postgraduate Biblical studies, I have never met a credible theologian who would agree with his exegesis and hermeneutic. Salvation is by faith but not faith only. The authors premise falls apart with the acceptance of the latter all the while ignoring the previously commanded. There is an authority issue here. Jesus said "all authority heaven/earth has been given to me". Jesus delegated this authority to the apostles. The authority given to the apostles by the Son of God is completely ignored by the interpretation. Without authority or form of an authorized agent the doctrine/teaching can not be accepted as truth. The debate has turned to baptism in and of itself. Do you see that the whole issue is not that of simply baptism? It is authority. No matter what we think of baptism, it was given as authoritative by Peter on Pentecost for the remission of sin. Perhaps as we continue study we can teach and learn more not only about the Bible but the interpretation methods. Debate is indeed good for the mind, body & soul.

Bigham, the "please don't bash me" says a lot concerning what people expect of us.

It is the Lord's Day, my peeps will be here and I'll shall bring forth hell fire & brimstone........nah..probably not.


Lisa..can you move this to the new thread? It was done before I saw your post. Thanks Sis.

It's no problem at all, we can just continue the conversation over there now.

 

[SuZamme]

AMEN!!! Well stated and I believe you are right.

I was beginning to wonder if the simplicity and power of accepting ourselves as one of God's creations and therefore perfect would be seen and acknowledged.
I see you.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Gonna have to throw one in here... Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is an expression and identification with Christ, the first commandment to those saved.

It's probably a moot point since Instigator hasn't been back since some of the people on this thread lost focus and decided to argue.

This issue of baptism has been debated for centuries. You'll certainly have your reasons for believing what you believe and I'm sure he will too. To argue about it is to take our eyes off of the issue. This is about Instigator's question. Not about a theological position that hasn't been resolved in 2000 years. For the sake of this discussion, might I suggest to approach it on common ground with Instigator. If I understand correctly, he is Catholic. His church teaches that baptism is essential to salvation. In my opinion, whether I agree with that theology is immaterial. What we can all agree on, is that relationship with God is what is important. And that relationship is available through the life, sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. Some of you have focused on defending your religion rather than a man's relationship with God.

There seems to be a connection between Instigator and Southern Gent. Might I suggest that we respect that and allow God to have HIS way.

edit... my appologies for not catching that this issue has already been addressed. It's so good to see people put aside the argument and focus on the topic and the person who started the topic.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

I appreciate your input HyOnLyph, but if you'll look a page back, I agreed with another poster that we shouldn't derail the thread anymore and instead bow out/take the discussion elsewhere, and I did just that.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Well then you did good by catching it. I guess I missed that one. Yours just happened to be the one that started the diversion. My post wasn't directed at you specifically. Only the tendency for people to begin to lose focus to defend their position. My appologies if you were offended.

 

[Southern Gent]

For those interested and I pray that would be all, I have spoken to our "brother" Instigator. Perhaps I should not air this but my heart cannot contain the joy I feel. Our brother has made peace with the Father and is doing well. Rejoice ye men and maidens for the angels in heaven are singing a beautiful chorus this day. To God be the glory.

 

[Instigator]

I want to chime in and say a few words.

First and foremost, Thank You All who have pitched in with answers. All of you are Great People and I now have finally catching up with my e-mails and messages after a long weekend + 1 day with my kids and family. My daily work is done analyzing data while looking at 2 monitors, that when the weekend comes.. I don't want to see any computers.

There's no apologies needed for thinking you have derailed my original question, I have read all the comments and now I can see!!

Thank you all for opening up a line of communication for the rest, who for sure will come asking similar questions.
Love you guys!