Importance of the Federal Dormant Commerce Clause in Indiana's Fight.

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Goldbug

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Hopefully this Federal Commerce Clause will prevent Indiana from enacting the most dangerous and threatening parts of SB 539 and HB 1432:

"A person may not purchase, receive, manufacture, import, or transport, or cause to be imported or transported from another state, territory, or country into Indiana, or transport, ship, barter, give away,
exchange, furnish, or otherwise handle or dispose of e-liquid, or to
possess e-liquid for purpose of sale.

A person may not knowingly receive or acquire e-liquid
from a person who does not hold a valid permit under this article
to sell, deliver, furnish, or give the e-liquid."

This section of the proposed bills would mandate every out of state manufacturer of e-liquid to obtain a permit from the state of Indiana.

If Indiana's model would be used nationwide, then a permit would be required from each state in which the manufacturer desires to sell.

Using Indiana's model, this would cost the manufacturer a minimum of $250,000, thereby forcing almost all small makers of e-liquid out of business.

Vapor Shops in Indiana would be severely limited in brands of e-liquid they could offer their customers.

The largest sections of these bills pertain to "in state" manufacturing.

These requirements would over-regulate the e-liquid industry in Indiana to the point of forcing almost all vapor shops that make and market their own e-liquid to go out of business. These regulations are so draconian in their requirements that I am not sure even a pharmacy has to abide by such severe regulations.

While I understand and agree that protection of the consumer is necessary and prudent, these bills are an overt attempt to make it so difficult to own and operate a Vapor Shop in Indiana, that they are effectively a ban on the Industry. Consumers should note that the pre-filled cartomizers marketed by big tobacco are exempt of these proposed regulations. In my opinion, this is not a coincidence and further highlights the increasing "government by Corporation" trend in the United States.

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The "dormant" Commerce Clause, also known as the "negative" Commerce Clause, is a legal doctrine that courts in the United States have inferred from the Commerce Clause in Article I of the United States Constitution. The Commerce Clause expressly grants Congress the power to regulate commerce "among the several states." The idea behind the dormant Commerce Clause is that this grant of power implies a negative converse — a restriction prohibiting a state from passing legislation that improperly burdens or discriminates against interstate commerce. The restriction is self-executing and applies even in the absence of a conflict between state and federal statutes, but Congress may allow states to pass legislation that would otherwise be forbidden by the dormant Commerce Clause.[1]

The premise of the doctrine is that the U.S. Constitution reserves for the United States Congress at least some degree of exclusive power "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" (Article I, § 8). Therefore, individual states are limited in their ability to legislate on such matters. The dormant Commerce Clause does not expressly exist in the text of the United States Constitution. It is, rather, a doctrine deduced by the U.S. Supreme Court and lower courts from the actual Commerce Clause of the Constitution. Justice Anthony Kennedy has written that: "The central rationale for the rule against discrimination is to prohibit state or municipal laws whose object is local economic protectionism, laws that would excite those jealousies and retaliatory measures the Constitution was designed to prevent."[2]
 
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sofarsogood

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The first part seems to refer to e liquid regardless of whether it has nic or flavors and it seems only intended to apply to people selling the e liquid in question. E liquid is not defined. I'm sure the drafter has no idea how to define e liquid for the purposes of regulation. My reading of the second part is that if someone gives 100% vg, unflavored, 0 nic to someone who then vapes it they have violated the regulation. There's no hint that they envision regulating DIY for personal consumption. May be they don't realize the potential for that, or the authority would be much tougher to get or DIY hasn'tt occured to them.

Will the courts allow use of tobacco authority for 0 nic liquid or devices that could be used for 0 nic liquid? My latest discovery is nic is not addictive even though a lot of us believe that it is. I'm going to experiment with 0 nic liquid and see if that can keep me from relapsing to smoking.
 

charly1954

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.............................. My latest discovery is nic is not addictive even though a lot of us believe that it is. I'm going to experiment with 0 nic liquid and see if that can keep me from relapsing to smoking.

I have slowly cut my Nic% down, started with 15mg now I use 5mg. I carry 2 ego bats w/clearomizers, one with 5mg Nic and the other w/ 0 Nic. 0 Nic does not satify my craveing so when I get that feeling I take a few vapes from my 5mg Nic. So chances are 0 Nic may not keep you from relapsing. Nicotine is addictive.

I am going to stock pile 60MG nic like I imagine many DIYer's will do. If anyone else does make sure you keep it in the freezer so it will stay good, if you have kids make sure you cut it down to at least 30mg and hide in back out of harms way.
 

LaraC

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Nicotine is addictive.

I don't doubt that you may have cravings for e-liquid containing nicotine, since you have had years of smoking before you began vaping.

However, the more we (as vapers) keep saying "nicotine is addictive," the more we are putting ourselves on the side of the opponents to e-cigarettes. Think of how many times you've read or heard phrases about "hooking kids on nicotine" and "creating a new generation of nicotine addicts" used to support bans on e-cigarettes or e-liquid.

The truth is... nicotine in and of itself and absent the cocktail of additional chemicals produced by combustion of cigarettes, probably is not addictive at all.

A lot of interesting reading here:
Is Nicotine Addictive ?

Quoting from that link:
"Studies have shown that none of the nicotine replacement therapies - chewing gum, inhalers, patches - none of those are addictive. Nicotine is not addictive. The cause of addiction is the release of monoamine oxidase inhibitors, or MAOIs, along with nicotine."
- Prof Peter Killeen, Emeritus Professor of Psychology, ASU
Professor: Nicotine does not cause cigarette addiction | The State Press - An independent daily serving Arizona State University
(I added colored highlight to what I considered the most important sentence in that statement.)

______________________________________

Another interesting link:
Is Everything We Know About Nicotine Wrong? | The Mind Unleashed
And a quote:
One of the most respected researchers in the field, Dr. Paul Newhouse, Director of Vanderbilt University’s Center for Cognitive Medicine, argues that nicotine “seems very safe even in nonsmokers. In our studies we find it actually reduces blood pressure chronically. And there were no addiction or withdrawal problems, and nobody started smoking cigarettes. The risk of addiction to nicotine alone is virtually nil.” Tobacco has also been considered harmful because it is highly addictive, but whether nicotine has the same addictive potential remains unclear. According to Dr. Newhouse, “nicotine by itself isn’t very addictive at all… [it] seems to require assistance from other substances found in tobacco to get people hooked.”
(My colored highlighting again.)
 

FyreDragon

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From SB 539:

Sec. 8. "E-liquid" means a substance that is:
(1) intended to be vaporized and inhaled using a vapor pen; and
(2) manufactured and sold in a refillable or unsealed
container or any container larger than two (2) milliliters.

Seems a bit broad and vague, no? Unfortunately, it seems to include zero nic.

Another troubling section of this mess:

Sec. 3. (a) Except as otherwise permitted by this article, a person
may not purchase, receive, manufacture, import, or transport, or
cause to be imported or transported from another state, territory,
or country into Indiana, or transport, ship, barter, give away,
exchange, furnish, or otherwise handle or dispose of e-liquid, or to
possess e-liquid for purpose of sale.
(b) A person may not knowingly receive or acquire e-liquid
from a person who does not hold a valid permit under this article
to sell, deliver, furnish, or give the e-liquid.

If I'm reading this correctly, it would be a violation to simply give someone a bottle of e-juice! Ridiculous!
 

sofarsogood

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If I'm reading this correctly, it would be a violation to simply give someone a bottle of e-juice! Ridiculous!
I've been vaping for 3 1/2 months and only looking into the political stuff for the past month. Hasn't there been similar legislation proposed in various states for a number of years that didn't get passed? What caused those to fail? How is this year different?
 

rothenbj

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The first part seems to refer to e liquid regardless of whether it has nic or flavors and it seems only intended to apply to people selling the e liquid in question. E liquid is not defined. I'm sure the drafter has no idea how to define e liquid for the purposes of regulation. My reading of the second part is that if someone gives 100% vg, unflavored, 0 nic to someone who then vapes it they have violated the regulation. There's no hint that they envision regulating DIY for personal consumption. May be they don't realize the potential for that, or the authority would be much tougher to get or DIY hasn'tt occured to them.

Will the courts allow use of tobacco authority for 0 nic liquid or devices that could be used for 0 nic liquid? My latest discovery is nic is not addictive even though a lot of us believe that it is. I'm going to experiment with 0 nic liquid and see if that can keep me from relapsing to smoking.

Perhaps for some, nic is indeed "addictive", just like chewing fingernails or curling your hair is "addictive". However, as a former 2 1/2 PAD smoker who had to have a cigarette every 20 minute or so, I have none of that need anymore. I call foul on that "cigarettes are as addictive as C or H" BS. That was part of the marketing of Tobacco Control to get the population at war with smokers and make an incredibly successful industry that they don't want to see disappear.
 

sofarsogood

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Perhaps for some, nic is indeed "addictive", just like chewing fingernails or curling your hair is "addictive". However, as a former 2 1/2 PAD smoker who had to have a cigarette every 20 minute or so, I have none of that need anymore. I call foul on that "cigarettes are as addictive as C or H" BS. That was part of the marketing of Tobacco Control to get the population at war with smokers and make an incredibly successful industry that they don't want to see disappear.
The day I started vapingt my cigs went from 25 to 4 even though the only thing I got from my first little vape pen was nic. Those last 4 cigs didn't want to go away. I needed a bit of effort finally to be rid of them. It was reletively easy after 6 weeks of "dual use" I was certain I would never stop vaping, that I was pretty much garranteed there would be no relapse if I toughed it out. The likelihood of relapse is demoralizzing. Eliminating that makes the final withdrawal a lot less stressful. During the phase where I was not smoking those last 4 cigs I was heavily overmedicating with nic. I suspect that distracted me from the absense of what ever is in those 4 cigarettes that is not nic.
 

rothenbj

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The day I started vapingt my cigs went from 25 to 4 even though the only thing I got from my first little vape pen was nic. Those last 4 cigs didn't want to go away. I needed a bit of effort finally to be rid of them. It was reletively easy after 6 weeks of "dual use" I was certain I would never stop vaping, that I was pretty much garranteed there would be no relapse if I toughed it out. The likelihood of relapse is demoralizzing. Eliminating that makes the final withdrawal a lot less stressful. During the phase where I was not smoking those last 4 cigs I was heavily overmedicating with nic. I suspect that distracted me from the absense of what ever is in those 4 cigarettes that is not nic.

I went from 50 to 6 and that was back in the pioneer days when the equipment, at best, was horrible. However I was constantly vaping for the hand to mouth habit and what I was missing from cigarettes, those other 5% minor alkaloids provided in tobacco. MAOI effect was important for my physiology.
 

charly1954

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I don't doubt that you may have cravings for e-liquid containing nicotine, since you have had years of smoking before you began vaping.

However, the more we (as vapers) keep saying "nicotine is addictive," the more we are putting ourselves on the side of the opponents to e-cigarettes. Think of how many times you've read or heard phrases about "hooking kids on nicotine" and "creating a new generation of nicotine addicts" used to support bans on e-cigarettes or e-liquid.

The truth is... nicotine in and of itself and absent the cocktail of additional chemicals produced by combustion of cigarettes, probably is not addictive at all.

I take take severe umbrage to your comment. If you have read any of my recent post you would know I would not do anything to help the Feds or Anti-smokers groups. I'm not scared to look the opposition straight in the eye and say yes nicotine is addictive but its no more harmful than coffee. There is many addictive things humans consume. But that does mean they are harmful. Nicotine does not cause cancer so I see NO harm in admitting nicotine is addictive.

Saying I am on the side of the Feds or Anti-smokers makes my blood boil. A month ago I was in our local paper, they took a photo of me vaping which took up about half the front page. The paper also interviewed me on my thoughts of taxing E-Cigs, I gave the Feds both barrels on my thoughts. The Government and anti-smokers can blow hot air all day about the lies and scare tactics they are using, but I will not follow their lead and LIE that Nicotine is not addictive. Nicotine is addictive and why should us Vapors act like the Feds and Anti-smokers and say its not. Saying Nicotine is not addictive just throws more fuel on the fire, it gives the Feds more reason to say Vapors are Liars.

So Miss or Misses LaraC take the time to read some of my last post, you will find I support Vapors 110% and will fight the Feds and Anti-Smokers till the end. But I will not LIE as you suggest.

Here's 2 links to my paper, the paper does not put the full article in the paper but you can see my photo and that I am very serious about this fight.

Smoking debate burns on: Indiana lawmakers consider new bill - Pharos-Tribune: Local News

Logansport reacts to nicotine proposal - Pharos-Tribune: Local News
 

sofarsogood

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Now that I'm vaping nic but not smoking I'm curious about how important nic is to my system. A few times I've emptied a tank and had no refill for a while and it was no where near the same reaction as running out of cigs. I'm not playing any games right now, just a few months away from smoking but I figure I'll experiment once I get going with DIY. The prime directive is to not relapse to cigs. How important is nic to that? I'd like to know. If I don't need nic or only need slight amounths there is no way the government can interfere with my vape.

There is good science that people who received nicotine therapy who never smoked did not report widthdrawal when the nic therapy ended. Also, there is nic patches and gum beingn approved for OTC sales. That couldn't have happened if never smokers could become addicted to nic. I read an article with quotes from a physician who used nic to treat several mental disorders. The way he puts it, nic is not "reinforcing" enough to become a dependance problem for never smokers. Lab animals will self medicate coc...n but often will not do the same for nic. If kids who never smoked vape nic will they have withdrrawal symptom if they stop vaping nic. That' question could be answered and it's important. If the answer turns out to be no then the addicted kids rhetoric is demolished.
 
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pennysmalls

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I personally have no proof except for my own experience. When I was smoking cigarettes I would get very edgy if I couldn't smoke when I needed to. If I was in a situation where I had to wait a long time after starting to feel edgy I would then get very agitated and couldn't focus on whatever it was I was doing because I "needed" to smoke that badly, the need to smoke overtook everything else. With vaping all of that is gone. Sure I miss it when I can't vape but it doesn't get to the point where I feel like I might fall apart. Nic does not have a hold on me like it did when I was smoking tobacco, not even close.
 

AndriaD

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This makes sense. I quit smoking quite a while ago. I do vape eliquid with nic in it, but never freak out if i cant vape for a while like i did when i was smoking. i went several days without vaping recently because all i had was juice i was letting steep. no jonesing, irritability, nothing.

I'm really looking forward to getting free of WTA, so I can get to this point. I've become so accustomed to the addiction via cigarettes, that now with WTA, it really just seems much the same, but being able to go for whatever length of time I choose and not feeling the physical pangs would be OUTSTANDING.

Andria
 

rothenbj

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I've been vaping for 3 1/2 months and only looking into the political stuff for the past month. Hasn't there been similar legislation proposed in various states for a number of years that didn't get passed? What caused those to fail? How is this year different?

CASAA and their alert calls got people in front of the legislature that were able to win a lot of battles. This year there are fires everywhere that need to be put out with boots on the ground. Without resistance, these laws will pass and our opponents are well funded and know how to keep the pressure on. Heck, I believe some of our opponents are now even in the vaping business, attempting to get legislation that supports their business model and removes the competition.
 

rothenbj

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Now that I'm vaping nic but not smoking I'm curious about how important nic is to my system. A few times I've emptied a tank and had no refill for a while and it was no where near the same reaction as running out of cigs. I'm not playing any games right now, just a few months away from smoking but I figure I'll experiment once I get going with DIY. The prime directive is to not relapse to cigs. How important is nic to that? I'd like to know. If I don't need nic or only need slight amounths there is no way the government can interfere with my vape.

There is good science that people who received nicotine therapy who never smoked did not report widthdrawal when the nic therapy ended. Also, there is nic patches and gum beingn approved for OTC sales. That couldn't have happened if never smokers could become addicted to nic. I read an article with quotes from a physician who used nic to treat several mental disorders. The way he puts it, nic is not "reinforcing" enough to become a dependance problem for never smokers. Lab animals will self medicate coc...n but often will not do the same for nic. If kids who never smoked vape nic will they have withdrrawal symptom if they stop vaping nic. That' question could be answered and it's important. If the answer turns out to be no then the addicted kids rhetoric is demolished.

Yes, many people find how little they are actually addicted to nic. A lot of the "addiction" is the habit of smoking- the hand to mouth and other rituals. I once wrote a comparison of the three general types of smokers- those that have an addiction to the chemicals in tobacco, those "addicted" to the habit" and those that treat an underlying level of depression that nic alone doesn't quench.

Over the first 6 months of vaping I was good vaping and having about 6 cigarettes a day after being a 43 year 2-3 PAD smoker at the end. However, at the six month mark, my desire for cigarettes kept increasing even though I had much better equipment and was vaping between 36-48 mg nic. I knew I was on the verge of failure again and started asking questions.

I found out about the other natural alkaloids in tobacco other than nicotine, about 5% of the total. I learned about Swedish snus and after getting over my believed dislike for smokeless tobacco (yes the propaganda trained me well) I placed an order to Sweden. Back in those days Camel was just coming out with their Americanized version and it wasn't readily available. My order got to me in less than a week which I found amazing.

In less than two weeks, I'll be 5 years since my last drag on a cigarette and it will also signigy when I used my first portion. I discovered I had an underlying depression in my physiology that the MAOI effect of the alkaloid combination treated and kept me even. Today I use the same amount of snus as I used back then- 4-5 portions on a regular basis. I vape mainly 6-8 mg nic but only maybe a ml every couple days and mostly because of the flavors.

The one thing I learned on this journey is that the way away from smoking has many paths and the tobacco control people are not helping anyone but themselves.
 

sofarsogood

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I've been posting on discus service where it is attached to news stories. It develops my pitch and helps me think things through. The tobacco controlers know things about us that we don't know. I'm realizing they are in a panic because they are starting to realize that cigarettes are literally obsolete. Vaping is a superior user experience, it avoids the health issues and costs a fraction of the money. Did anyone here ever own a 4 function Bowmar calculator that cost them $125. Technology has caught up with cigarettes. The tobacco companies know it. I believe the FDA knows it. Governmentzs haven't come to grips with it yet. The days of all that easy money are ending. Vaping is a much bigger threat to more things than I realized.

The FDA knows that vaping doesn't need strict regulation. It needs some research on the fine points and some industry standards. That's all it needs. The problem isn't science, it's politics and money.
 

AndriaD

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I've been posting on discus service where it is attached to news stories. It develops my pitch and helps me think things through. The tobacco controlers know things about us that we don't know. I'm realizing they are in a panic because they are starting to realize that cigarettes are literally obsolete. Vaping is a superior user experience, it avoids the health issues and costs a fraction of the money. Did anyone here ever own a 4 function Bowmar calculator that cost them $125. Technology has caught up with cigarettes. The tobacco companies know it. I believe the FDA knows it. Governmentzs haven't come to grips with it yet. The days of all that easy money are ending. Vaping is a much bigger threat to more things than I realized.

The FDA knows that vaping doesn't need strict regulation. It needs some research on the fine points and some industry standards. That's all it needs. The problem isn't science, it's politics and money.

I recently read a historical about Gutenberg, and that first printing of the bible. It had to be done in strictest secrecy, because Gutenberg understood that the power of that press would change the world, and he also realized that the Church, if it got wind of it before that printing was finished and that bible published, would do everything in their power to suppress it -- and they had a LOT of power in the 15th century.

The internet itself is actually a better comparison to the power of that first press, but e-cigs have the power to disrupt and change so many power flows, in the form of money -- not a little money, but virtual rivers of it, going all which ways, to do with tobacco. Just see what the internet has done to newspaper and magazine publishing -- e-cigarettes are doing that to tobacco, and will continue doing it for quite a while, if not forever.

But we cannot back down: we have the right to use anything to save our own lives; they cannot, they SHALL NOT take that away. one way or another, vaping is here to stay.

Andria
 
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