Intellicig response to HM Government proposals

Status
Not open for further replies.

Toby

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Dec 10, 2008
1,009
233
York UK
www.ivapour.co.uk
Just for your information Toby (and other suppliers), I have no objection to you posting on our supplier forum here although you are supposed to ask permission first according to the Supplier Rules - not proposals;)
So long as it is civil all are welcome but it is courteous to ask.
John.

Yes John, I apologise for not asking you in advance.

But I am just extremely concerned for the potential (or lack of) future availability of a decent range of e-liquid for all e-cig users (whether used as a quit smoking method, or for recreation), from different suppliers.

That is primarily why I was asking if you would be (with whoever else) willing to try and fight the MHRA on this.

I know my appeal seems to be have been in vain, but surely you can't blame me for trying.
 

exogenesis

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 1, 2009
877
16
UK
Where is this big campaign and the huge fund required to make the challenge?
John.

As a community of vapers (of different degrees) we all on the same side - I hope,
I'm certainly on 'your' side from the point of view of wanting (non-monopoly) quality supplies to continue.

The thing about the current proposals is that (I don't think) they give enough time to get products
to regulatory acceptance of the juices/equipment/practices (or any combination) that are used to define a 'vaper',
maybe I'm wrong ?

Best chances of acceptance of nicotine containing juices (even as a standalone product) must surely be
the 'pharma'-grade ones, you're one of the only two UK suppliers I know of that do that,
personally I'm on that side certainly, i.e. yours, as long as the aim isn't non-nic. juices.

The huge fund obviously doesn't exist, & I doubt if any single supplier can create it, in the time frame proposed,
but if that can be extended or staged, maybe it can be done.
Are the three proposals really set in stone, or open to the consultation process ?

tbh if I were in your shoes I'd possibly be hedging my bets by mainly aiming at getting the (nic.) juices regulated
& 'promote' an alternative delivery method, e.g. juice soaked cotton wads - like clean 'snus', doubt if it'd get the same
following as vaping tho, for various reasons.

Anyway, as TB said the nearest thing to a concerted approach is via CASAA.
 

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
John, my wish is that you consult with the board of CASAA on opposition strategy and consider consequences beyond your corporate success. Much is at stake here, for your company and our practice.

I do not want to hear the sound of a giant flush coming from the UK.

You're missing the point Bob, this is not about opposing the MHRA or the government, it's about opposing the influence of companies that make up to $10 BILLION profit a year. If CASAA or anyone else thinks they can do that successfully then, as I have stated before, I wish them luck, but I do not believe it is a realistic objective. Neither CASAA nor any significant suppliers have been in contact with us regarding any campaign or joint strategy. We knew long ago that regulation was inevitable, now it is on our doorstep.
John.
 

Crossbow

Full Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 18, 2009
38
37
I think you may have missed the point, Shining.

Currently, ecigs are alternatives to smoking, and so are somewhat tangentially in competition with the tobacco and pharmaceutical companies.

IF all NCPs are medicines, and IF you get an MA, you will then be in direct competition with pharmaceutical companies, in a market they control. If you think you can compete in that market, I think you are being overly optimistic. Who will buy an Evo for £20 from the garage if they can get the J&J version on prescription? (and pay the other £25 it costs in taxes, but when did that ever matter?)

Better to oppose thier influence now than try and compete with them in a game where they own the pitch, and have the referee around for dinner every week.

If option 3 read "Not all NCPs are appropriate for control as medicines, and so are not appropriate for MHRA regulation" you would probably support it, and spin aside - thats what it does say.
 

Webby

Resting In Peace
ECF Veteran
Mar 31, 2009
796
15
USA
Shining,

I understand the frustration, but as you've pointed out, most suppliers are just small businesses that are reselling bulk from China. The ranks of CASAA are growing daily but we are a consumer group and without individual representation on the ground there isn't much we can do. Our coffers don't budget for air dropping legal staff or sending in PR troops. There should certainly be no illusions that CASAA was formed to .... heads directly with any government. It would be foolhardy to expect a fledgling industry like the e-cig suppliers and manufacturers to fight an expensive legal battle with the U.S. or UK Government.

There are several threads in CASAA - E-Cigarette Forum requesting reps from the UK. We'd welcome your streetview observations and views as to where we can help. CASAA is not a US-Only organization, but (so far) the battles we fight here in the states are against the devils we know.

We've already seen some progress in victories against state bans here and having materials posted on our web site used in major news pieces. (as opposed to journalists pulling the same tired FDA story off the web and regurgitating it) CASAA's goals are education and support for the harm reduction community. With a membership (globally) reaching into the thousands already, input from members is critical to making progress anywhere we take the fight.
 
Last edited:

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
It would be foolhardy to expect a fledgling industry like the e-cig suppliers and manufacturers to fight an expensive legal battle with the U.S. or UK Government.
Exactly my point, with the addition of 'big P'.

There are several threads in CASAA - E-Cigarette Forum requesting reps from the UK. We'd welcome your streetview observations and views as to where we can help. CASAA is not a US-Only organization, but (so far) the battles we fight here in the states are against the devils we know.
I would say lobby for option2, but not everyone agrees, possibly because they cannot or will not reinvest the amount of money required to get their MA.
Allowing 'small companies' to sell 'recreational' products would open up a bigger hornet's nest than there already is, ask J&J or SmthGlaxoKline.
What response has there been from the UK regarding how you might help?

We've already seen some progress in victories against state bans here and having materials posted on our web site used in major news pieces. (as opposed to journalists pulling the same tired FDA story off the web and regurgitating it) CASAA's goals are education and support for the harm reduction community. With a membership (globally) reaching into the thousands already, input from members is critical to making progress anywhere we take the fight.

I rather we take on 'big P' directly with our product in the marketplace than try to fight a legal battle that would see us abandoned in the hinterland.
John.
 

pillbox38

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
  • Deleted by Shining Wit
  • Reason: Posted against supplier rules and lacked the courtesy to ask.

Perfectionist

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 22, 2008
175
0
London
  • Deleted by Shining Wit
  • Reason: Refused to remove coupon code from signature which caused people to complain to me.

Perfectionist

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 22, 2008
175
0
London
  • Deleted by Shining Wit
  • Reason: Refysed to remove coupon code from signature which caused people to complain to me.

PlanetScribbles

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 3, 2009
1,046
124
Londinium, Brittania
The reality is as follows :-

Option 1 = End up like Australia

Option 2 = Play the game according the their rules, in the hope that you're allowed a slice of the pie

Option 3 = Utter fantasy !! E-cigs are an enemy to some of the most powerful Corporations in the world and a threat to Government Tax Revenue ...... therefore they WILL be controlled, sooner or later, one way or another ...... even in the highly unlikely event that Option 3 prevails - do you really think that will be the end of it ??

It's just the first battle - "they" will eventually and most certainly win the War ...... ;)

There should be no doubt about trading in e-cigs in a free market. In a free market, everyone should be allowed a slice of the pie.
Now if the UK is headed toward a regulated market economy, that isn't a UK I want to live in. Bring on the national election. Please, for the love of God, bring it on ...
 

deewal

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 30, 2008
692
3
77
In a house.
Sir, I'm afraid I have to inform you that the "enemies" of e-cigs are too big and powerful to oppose - the only way to survive is to appease ...... ;)
Appeasement. That worked out very well for Neville Chamberlain in 1938 appeasing a Dictator. The Dictator was given more time to amass his Forces resulting in a World War in which 60 million people died. Half a million British people died fighting to give you the Freedom to talk the way you want to now. They will all be turning in their graves if they could hear your words and realise they died for you to appease another Dictatorship.
These are the last words i will address to you. You appear to be either ignorant of the History of this Country or an enemy of this Country and Freedom.
 

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
troll alert


"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Judging between a post that stayed on topic and made valid points, although a little 'theatrical', and a post that was merely to provoke, who is really the troll here?
This thread has been full of healthy debate and I think that most posters realise that we will not all agree, but we choose to disagree civilly.

Before you reply, have a read of the quote below which I found on the internet some time ago and which is directly attributable to pillbox38 aka Jason Cropper, director of Totally Wicked and The Electronic Cigarette Company.

QUOTE: This is a massive market business wise..we now have some of the bigger fish sniffing around...They can buy me out in 2 years, but before then i want to hand them a fully trialed, NHS therapy...And for me my goal re ecigs is attained..the increase in sales helps tremendously as it means are finances can purchase better artillary

Now will someone lecture me about selling people down the river? At least we are straight up about our intentions.
Cheers.
John.
 
Last edited:

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
Appeasement. That worked out very well for Neville Chamberlain in 1938 appeasing a Dictator. The Dictator was given more time to amass his Forces resulting in a World War in which 60 million people died. Half a million British people died fighting to give you the Freedom to talk the way you want to now. They will all be turning in their graves if they could hear your words and realise they died for you to appease another Dictatorship.
These are the last words i will address to you. You appear to be either ignorant of the History of this Country or an enemy of this Country and Freedom.

It was tempting I admit to use your 'Frank Carson' reply but I will not stoop that low with my bad back.

Many of those that died were fighting because they had been 'forced' to whether they believed in the ideology or not. My father in law was one of the first wave of infantry to hit the beaches for the Normandy landings and saw many of his friends and comrades fall as they ran up the beach like ducks at a rifle range. He often looked back on those times and wondered was it worth it? He told me, "The answer was yes, but I would have rather volunteered than been conscripted as that deprived me of my freedom of choice. We resented the 'big knobs' telling us what was our duty when we knew bloody well what it was!".

"Half a million British people died fighting to give you the Freedom to talk the way you want to now. They will all be turning in their graves if they could hear your words and realise they died for you to appease another Dictatorship."

So, freedom of speech as long as it is what you want to hear? mmmm.

Cheers.
John.
 

Perfectionist

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 22, 2008
175
0
London
  • Deleted by Shining Wit
  • Reason: Refused to remove coupon code from signature which caused people to complain to me.

Sludge Van Diesel

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 24, 2009
832
683
Barnet UK
QUOTE: This is a massive market business wise..we now have some of the bigger fish sniffing around...They can buy me out in 2 years, but before then i want to hand them a fully trialed, NHS therapy...And for me my goal re ecigs is attained..the increase in sales helps tremendously as it means are finances can purchase better artillary.
Now that is interesting.

Especially when you take into consideration the shouting down & subsequent ban I received on the TW forum when I quite vocally opposed the re-branding as E-Ni, because I thought it was a dangerous thing to be calling e-cigs something that could be interpreted as a medicinal device.

I guess you reap what you sow.
 

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
It seems you have changed your mind Sludge and are now backing the e-cig as a medicinal device.....as for the ban we know the real reason;)

But how do you explain the U-turn?

Directly attributable to pillbox38 aka Jason Cropper, director of Totally Wicked and The Electronic Cigarette Company.

QUOTE: This is a massive market business wise..we now have some of the bigger fish sniffing around...They can buy me out in 2 years, but before then i want to hand them a fully trialed, NHS therapy...And for me my goal re ecigs is attained..the increase in sales helps tremendously as it means are finances can purchase better artillary

John.
 

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
John...I'm not saying he hasn't done a u-turn....only that Sludge has...

It's almost as good as the SkiCross in th'Olympics!!:D

Keep posting, it's good to vent one's spleen.

A message for Perfectionist:
Please remove the affiliate code from your sig or I will have to remove all of your posts which would be such a shame as you have made a good contribution to this debate.
Also, to all members posting on our forum, please keep it civil and don't start throwing insults as this has been probably the most constructive debate on the subject. We can agree to disagree.
Best wishes
John.
 

Perfectionist

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 22, 2008
175
0
London
  • Deleted by Shining Wit
  • Reason: Refused to remove coupon code from signature which caused people to complain to me.

Shining Wit

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2008
1,242
187
North of England UK
www.flavourart.co.uk
There is a UK supplier selling a liquid knowing that the flavouring in concentrated form 'eats' HDPE plastic bottles. The supplier is considering other materials for the bottles so the concentrated flavour can be sold direct to the public.

There is another UK supplier who advocates putting a drop of 36mg VG on your tongue for a bit of extra kick.


Both of these suppliers are in favour of no regulation for electronic cigarettes and liquids. It's not difficult to see why and it's a no brainer to see how simple it is to build a case for regulation when such irresponsibility is shown.

John.
 

Nick O'Teen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 28, 2009
510
10
58
Swansea, Wales
www.decadentvapours.com
A little clarification, since I am the manufacturer of the flavouring you're maligning here (Decadent Vapours Absinthe).

There is a UK supplier selling a liquid knowing that the flavouring in concentrated form 'eats' HDPE plastic bottles. The supplier is considering other materials for the bottles so the concentrated flavour can be sold direct to the public.

This sounds awfully dramatic, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume this unscientific panic-mongering is due to ignorance of the basic chemistry, rather than anything more malicious.

It is a fact of life that many essential oils can do this in strong solutions, and that essential oils are used in most ejuice flavourings (pretty much all fruit/spice flavours, and most tobacco flavours,) and more widely in many food flavourings.
Put Loranns Peppermint concentrate, or citrus oils, or spearmint snus in an HDPE bottle, and they have exactly the same effect (which is why Loranns use glass bottles for all their concentrates.) Make up a 5-10% solution and put that in the same HDPE bottle, and it doesn't - the excipients act as a buffer, and there's no corrosion.

It's exactly the same with the Absinthe - it's a perfectly safe product, made from approved food flavourings, but it contains natural essential oils (fully volatile,) that are incompatible with certain artificial compounds - specifically the material the dropper bottles are made out of. That's all.

I could solve the problem by diluting the concentrate, but that would end up making it weaker than most of my other concentrates, and would feel too much like giving short measure - I'd rather find compatible bottles, or a reformulation that will stabilize the oils to stop them doing this. Absinthe is very high in essential oils (they're what gives the drink its characteristic 'louche',) - higher than any of my other flavours, and that's why it's the one flavour causing this problem. But it's still made entirely from commercially produced, approved food flavouring concentrates.

Food corrosion is nothing new - there's a whole industry out there refining packaging techniques for foods that have a deleterious effect on containers. But are you never going to risk eating lasagna (oh no - it DISSOLVES ALUMINIUM!!! :shock: , or salt (Oh no - it EATS METAL!!! :shock: EVEN STAINLESS STEEL!!! :shock: ), or water (oh no - it CORRODES STEEL PIPES!!!:shock: ) Or Vinegar, Mentos, Coca Cola, Baking Soda, Soy sauce, and all the other foodstuffs that can undergo deleterious reactions in contact with the wrong substances?

I would sort of assume, seeing as how you proudly claim to produce the first "Made in UK" ejuice, that you might understand this much chemistry already, but apparently not. Or is it really just an attempt to score points at a time when we surely ought to all be pulling together?

There is another UK supplier who advocates putting a drop of 36mg VG on your tongue for a bit of extra kick.


Both of these suppliers are in favour of no regulation for electronic cigarettes and liquids. It's not difficult to see why and it's a no brainer to see how simple it is to build a case for regulation when such irresponsibility is shown.
John.

For the record, and speaking purely for myself, I tend towards option 2 actually, though I'd be more enthusiastic about it if the MHRA weren't so obviously biased.
 
Last edited:

Sludge Van Diesel

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 24, 2009
832
683
Barnet UK
It seems you have changed your mind Sludge and are now backing the e-cig as a medicinal device
Really??? That's funny, as I don't recall actually posting my feelings on the subject anywhere. (Other than the fact that E-NI is a ridiculous name for them & it does sound like a medicinal device & I do not support the use of that name, because it blatantly isn't medicinal )

I would have to say that the statement above is mere supposition on your part Ian.

My preference would actually be for them to be regulated, but only in the way that cigarettes are. Also for manufacture of all e-liquids (regardless where they are made) to be under lab conditions.


You read it here first folks! :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread