Interesting article and interview....

[Oliver]

Have a look: Do Kennedy and Waxman know about electronic or e-cigarettes? - particularly for the forum's US members, but the interview with 'Andy' is quite interesting, and reflects much of what has been said on the forum.

SJ

 

[TropicalBob]

I'm ... speechless. We're in limbo in the States. This is Big tobacco's Last Stand for the U.S. It cannot profit from e-smoking. Big Pharm cannot profit from e-smoking. Both of these monsters need cigarette sales and use to continue. And whether anyone says it or not, all levels of government -- now heavily dependent on tobacco taxes -- need sales to continue.

Read any U.S. newspaper today and you'll find top stories about collapsing government agencies, layoffs and unemployment rising, decreasing home values and loss of property tax revenue, the dollar's decline, Wall Street in daily jerky panics, and a taxpayer movement that says "no more!" Where will funds come from for education, for health care, for fighting damn wars we don't need but get entangled in, for saving the world from expensive threats like global warming, for paying off the National Debt even as Baby Boomers age and face a bankrupt Social Security and Medicare system?

If tobacco is banned or taxed into oblivion, good luck finding another source of tax monies. Only addicts would put up with the insane taxes on cigarettes.

Me personally? Throw the .......s out. They had their chance and screwed everything up. I've concluded we'd be better off if Legislatures were selected like juries -- no election, we just draw random ordinary folks to serve one term. Can anyone imagine them being worse than the paid-for politicians we "elected"?

 

[windblown]

Quote from Kennedy/Waxman article.....

"......it remains illegal in the U.S. to market what may be the most promising harm reduction device yet. It's called the electronic or "e-cigarette."

I am confused about this legality issue. If electronic cigarettes are illegal in the U.S., how is it that NJoy is able to exist and sell products in the U.S.?

Also, Bill Bartkowski, President of Ruyan America, informs me that Ruyan e-cigs will soon be available in tobacco shops.

Is the legality issue simply that they cannot be advertised?

 

[Meltrex]

Quote from Kennedy/Waxman article.....

"......it remains illegal in the U.S. to market what may be the most promising harm reduction device yet. It's called the electronic or "e-cigarette."

I didn't read that anywhere windblown, read thru several times to find that quote. This is all I could find from the Article

In 2002 the FDA declared both the nicotine lollipop and nicotine lip balm as being illegal products on dual fronts, as being either unapproved nicotine cessation products or unapproved nicotine addiction treatment products. Now, the most sophisticated harm reduction device yet, the electronic or "e-cigarette," could itself see increasing FDA scrutiny. Marketed by a Scottsdale, Arizona based company calling itself "NJoy," the e-cigarette is being sold as an "alternative to smoking that offers reduced health risk."

As far as I can tell, Nothing is illegal about it, except maybe advertising it as a cessation device.
IMHO and I know alot of other readers on this forum see E-smoking as an alternative to tobacco smoking. Not a cessation device. Rest assured our government (USA) will govern it in some way eventually.

 

[Oliver]

I have been chatting with John R. Polito, the author of the article above, and he has made some interesting and pertinent points.

Most of those who offer products containing nicotine such as snuss or e-cigarettes, often overlook or understate the negative effects of nicotine itself.

oops, gotta go - I'll finish this later!

SJ

 

[windblown]

Meltrex wrote:

I didn't read that anywhere windblown, read thru several times to find that quote. This is all I could find from the Article

This is strange, but the sentence about illegality has apparently been removed. I was reading the same article on a different website and the paragraph has been changed.

Here is the entire paragraph:

A 2003 study by GlaxoSmithKline consultants found that 37% of all nicotine gum users were then hooked on the cure. U.S. Presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama is among them, having admitted being dependent upon nicotine gum for at least 13 months. Yet today it remains illegal to market in the U.S. what may be the most promising harm reduction device yet. It's called the electronic or "e-cigarette."

And this is the website where the quote appears...

http://drugpolicycentral.com/bot/articl ... it2873.htm

WB

 

[markab]

Awwww sure just leave us hanging.... and just as your post was getting interesting
Alright, I suppose we can all wait patiently a little longer...

Mark

I have been chatting with John R. Polito, the author of the article above, and he has made some interesting and pertinent points.

Most of those who offer products containing nicotine such as snuss or e-cigarettes, often overlook or understate the negative effects of nicotine itself.

oops, gotta go - I'll finish this later!

SJ

 

[Oliver]

Haha! OK, sorry about that - I'm stupidly busy at the moment.

So John has forwarded me some interesting clinical trial papers. They are proper peer-review journal papers so it'll take some time to read them, but essentially they have investigated the dangers of nicotine, with particular emphasis on its neurotoxicity in adolescents and pregnant women.

The other interesting thing about these studies is that they have, in part, been funded by Philip Morris. John makes the point that this may make the studies themselves untouchable by large portions of the scientific/legal community despite the fact that they describe nicotine as a powerful toxin. From PM's point of view, they can now say "Well we told you so", without worrying too much about any attention being paid to the studies' results.

If anyone wants copies of these studies, PM me. (private message, that is, not Philip Morris)

SJ

 

[TropicalBob]

I spent some time this morning investigating the impact of nicotine on the lung's cilia, the little hair-like things that move mucus along and out as we cough, swallow or spit. We've long been told that SMOKING partially paralyzes the cilia, so these little hairs waving 1,300 times a minute can't rid of us of the tars we coated our lungs with. They partially recover function overnight, when we don't smoke, which is why smokers wake up to coughing fits -- ridding themselves of some of the tars they sucked in the previous day.

But a study at Ohio State University says nicotine alone -- independent of smoke -- decreases cilia function 50%! If we inhale nicotine constantly (a temptation with e-smoking) then we are effectively paralyzing optimal functioning of our lungs' cilia. In long-time smokers, some cilia give up and die. They won't grow back. The result is COPD.

So Meltrex noted he'd been clearing his throat more. Bingo. Coughing? Bingo. Instead of functioning quietly in the background, our cilia sporadically manage to push up some of the crud we've inhaled. We clear our throat to swallow. We cough to expel. (Side note: Environmentalists estimate that in my area, an average person inhales a teaspoon of dust every day. That's without smoking. And lungs must get rid of it.)

I guess the bottom line is, as SJ suggests in another post, that nicotine by itself is not entirely benign. It doesn't cause cancer, but it certainly impacts our lungs in ways we don't yet fully understand. But any deviation from the balance nature gave us cannot be good. In the Ohio State study, the higher the nicotine doses, the greater the cilia dysfunction. Maybe we should try that step-down available to us.

 

[dnakr]

I always thought it was the tar in the cigarette smoke that paralyzes the cilia. Now I need to go back and re-read again.

 

[TropicalBob]

These results were, as usual, from animal testing. But nicotine cut ciliary action 43% and tar 33%. The study also broke down smoke effects from numerous sources -- cigarette, cigar, pipe. It's a PDF document and the last page has conclusions. https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/22343/1/V076N1_027.pdf

I conclude from this study that nicotine alone can have negative impacts on cilia.

 

[Meltrex]

Ok, now I'm in total limbo here. I know smoking is bad bad bad and feel it in my body everyday. Yet, I'm tormented by fail after fail attempts of quitting. Then, here I find out about e-cigarettes, totally fascinated by it. Here I think, "no more worries of the worries from smoking" Even considering starting up my own ecig biz, make some bucks, spread the word about ecigs to all. Smoking revolution is at hand. Also thinking,"can even save lives" <<--- not so much anymore after reading this topic. Most certainly do not want to sell a product that will hurt people in the long run. Least with the nicotine patches and gums, cilia aren't effected.

This is from ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine )

Link to circulatory disease
Nicotine has very powerful effects on arteries throughout the body. Nicotine is a stimulant, speeding up the heart by about 20 beats per minute with every cigarette; it raises blood pressure, and is a vasoconstrictor, making it harder for the heart to pump through the constricted arteries. It causes the body to release its stores of fat and cholesterol into the blood.

Nicotine increases the risk of blood clots significantly. If blood clots in an artery, blood flow is reduced or halted, and tissue loses its source of oxygen and nutrients and dies in minutes.

Peripheral circulation, arteries going to the extremities, are also highly susceptible to the vasoconstrictor effects of nicotine as well as the increased risk of clots and clogging.

As I was reading up on that, I also found this Article called "Nicotine-Linked Gene Change Raises Risk of Cancer " you can find it here : http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home


Unfortunately for me, I'm up to about $700.00 worth in various models of e-cigs to test out trying to find the right product for me to resell. Thinking I should stop now before starting something that may be a real regret later on in many more ways than one.

Anyone else know of any other clinical studies or trials to get more information.
If any of you were in my shoes would you still consider starting up a retail shop for E-cigs at this point and time?

Thanks

 

[Oliver]

Well my opinion is that the e-cigarette is a harm-reduction device. That is, it isn't entirely safe as one is still consuming nicotine which is still somewhat of an unknown quantity with a growing body of evidence pointing to its harmful effects.

However, compare the risks of pure nicotine consumption with that of tobacco smoke and it's a no-brainer. I view the e-cigarette as a device for people like you (Meltrex) and me, who have tried to quite many times but failed. The first thing any smoker should do is try to quit. If they fail, rather than starting smoking again, they should use an e-cigarette until they try to quit again.

It is ultimately all about informed consent - which clearly only exists if the correct information is available.

With that in mind, I'd suggest that you should have no ethical problems selling e-cigarettes so long as you present all the relevant health information known to your potential customers. This is something that is so-far sadly lacking in the market, as far as I can see.

What does everyone else think?

SJ

 

[shawnp1]

totally agree with u there

 

[dnakr]

I totally agree 100%.

 

[windblown]

Meltrex, I want to commend you for your conscientious consideration of the ethics of selling e-cigarettes.
I started smoking 45 years ago and have never been able to break the habit. Oh, I quit once for 2 years, and I even quit once for 8 years, but I was always a smoker at heart. For the last 10 years, I have not even tried to quit. When my kids and grandkids would try to get me to stop, I would tell them to forget about it. If it were not for cigarettes, I would likely have killed all of them anyway. Cigarettes gave me the means to relax my mind and restore my sanity.....as only a smoker can know.

17 days ago my $40 e-cigarette arrived from China. I did not order it with the intent to quit smoking. Like many of you, I wanted something that I could use at times when it was not possible to have a cigarette. To my astonishment, the e-cigarette has satisfied my cravings to the extent that I have not had a single real cigarette since it arrived.

Perhaps it is not completely safe to use, but it is hard to imagine that it could be any worse than smoking. I think it would be great to have a seller like you who was willing to give the buyer all the information available and let them make the decision as to what is right for them. And I would also appreciate having a seller who had tried the different types and brands and knew what worked the best. If you decide to proceed with your venture, I would be more than happy to recommend you to any of my friends and family.

WB

 

[EricD]

I suppose I only have one comment on this topic. Despite the various studies claiming the ills of nicotine, which I won't even try to dispute, let common sense guide you. After using the e-products, do you feel better? Can you walk farther, climb more stairs, breathe easier? Well, if so, it is a "no-brainer." Whether you take nicotine through cigarettes or gum, your still getting nicotine. The e-cigarette gives you a comfortable, healthier, and a more exciting means of taking nicotine than popping a damn patch on your arm. How cool is a patch... really... how cool... not very... so.. ok, I digress. The point is simply this, don't get all antsy because some studies say nicotine is bad, seriously, everything we do is bad for us. Swimming in a lake is bad for us. Just ask yourself if your better off now, then you were before. Would those switching from regular cigarettes be better off with e-cigarettes or no. I think they would, and therefore, I would have no problem with selling the product. Of course, saying that nicotine is bad for you goes without saying, but ... I think if someone is looking at e-cigarettes as an option, already knows that. :mrgreen:

 

[TropicalBob]

Eric, this topic wouldn't be worthy of discussion if:

1. A topic hadn't already been posted about coughing caused by e-smoking.
2. Meltrex hadn't noted a more frequent need to clear the throat.

I'll post myself as Exhibit A. I really, really want e-smoking to be my savior. But I now have serious concerns about the consequences of inhaling the vapor. Something in that vapor is doing bad things -- again -- to my throat and lungs. I smoked for 50 years and quit only because I began a smoker's hack. It was that hack I wanted gone. It went away after 7 days of not inhaling smoke.

It returned in 3 days each time I resumed smoking.

Now it's back, brought on, I can only assume, by e-smoking. Steady and persistant, day and night.

I'd be in a panic if I didn't have other sources of nicotine. I'm addicted to nicotine, so I need it in a form that doesn't irritate my lungs. I might be unique in my reaction to the vapor. I might, however, represent a minority who can't inhale the vapor of propylene glycol without coughing. If that's the case ... I'll stop e-smoking and move my needs to snus, hard snuff and nasal snuff. They work and none require me to inhale anything. None make my cough, I know from past experience.

I'll be extremely sorry if this becomes necessary, because since I got my first e-pipe three months ago, I've become enamored of the way e-smoking helps me stay away from real cigarettes. It's satisfying for hands and eyes, too, in ways no other nicotine replacement is.

Safer than inhaling real cigarette smoke? Yes, but with the cavaet that some individuals might react negatively to the chemicals in the vapor. Safer then than all nicotine replacement products? The jury is out.

If I can force myself, I might take a week away from e-smoking, maybe resume puffing cigars for a week. If the cough goes away, I think I'll have my answer.

 

[EricD]

hmm... ok... i didn't realize so many people are having problems with coughing. Well, then I guess we'll just have to see if you actually are better off e-smoking. I've read some posts from people who've been smoking for 6-9 months and claim they feel "clear-lunged" and healthier. This might also have something to do with too much puffing at one time. I can't say. I suppose we'll just have to wait for those trails to finish up and get some more info. I do know though that propylene-glycole is an irritant. Though they state that this is likely not threatening, mainly irritating. But, then again, I'm no expert. I'm a newbie. Still hopeful though that this has more to do with less smoking of cigarettes.

 

[EricD]

Don't know if you guys saw this, but the new zealand study seems to have released a partial results from some of its studies. You guys probably saw this, but if not, here's the link. Its a pdf, but you can view it as html by googling it.

How safe is an E-Cigarette?

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/Portland2008ECIG.pdf