Introducing Futura - The Modular DNA 20 APV by NexgenVapor[ISSUE]

[SonHouse]

I just want to clarify something here: The amperage drawn from the battery is INDEPENDENT of the coils resistance. 20 watts is 20 watts regardless of resistance, and due to the fixed voltage of the power source, you have to calculate amperage using ~3.7v.

I believe the DNA 30 is 93% efficient (someone correct me if im wrong)..

So Input Current = Output Power / Input Voltage...

eg: lets say you set the device to 30 watts...

given 93% efficiency, you have to calculate amperage using ~32.3 watts (30 / 0.93 = 32.258)

So amperage drawn from the battery is equal to output power setting (32.3 watts, given efficiency losses) / input voltage (~3.7v)

amperage from battery = 32.3 / 3.7 = ~8.7

So the higher the battery voltage, the lower the amp draw and vice versa... so if your battery is down to 2.5 volts (just an example, the DNA board wont fire at this point) your amperage from the battery will be 12.92 (at 30 watts.

So EVERYTIME you set the dna30 to 30 watts, you are drawing 8.7 amps from the battery (given a 3.7v battery), regardless of the coils resistance. This is approximate, since a batteries voltage varies under load (and between manufacturers, due to varying internal resistance of battery)

I hope this clears a few things up.

Cheers!

Sorry, but you have some huge misconceptions going on here. You really need to spend a bit of time learning to understand Ohm's law and Watts law. The amperage is not independent of the resistance which is the basis of sub-ohm vaping.

First off, the voltage of a freshly charged battery is 4.2 volts so I'm not quite sure why you're using the 3.7 nominal voltage as some sort of cap. The maximum output of the DNA30 is 10 amps, not the 8.7 you suggest. To deliver that, it requires 10/.93 amps of current drawn from the battery which is where Evolv derives their 12 amp figure from. They include a safety margin to allow for the real world tolerances. Now, every time you draw 30 watts you are not drawing the maximum amperage from the battery. With a 2 Ohm resistance you are going to have 3.87 amps, with a 0.5 Ohm resistance, you will be pulling 7.75 amps.

You should restrict your posting on the topic until you understand the basics.

Now, back to the actual discussion. Pulling more current out of the battery than it is rated for can be done. The DNA30 isn't a magic machine with a table of rated amperages. It is measuring what current a battery will supply which may not be the same as it's rating. Case in point, the 10 amp battery which is rated for 18 amps short term. The 18 amps is how much it will supply, well maybe less and it doesn't magically drop the amount of current it's putting out because 6 seconds have passed, it keeps supplying 18 amps but you'll be driving it into thermal venting. That's what the DNA30 is measuring, if the battery can supply the amperage, not if it's wise.

It really is about how much risk you're willing to tolerate. If you're willing to up your chances of having a battery vent on you go for it. I'm a libertarian, I really don't care what you do with your body so long as it doesn't affect me.

Trust me, I've wrestled with those trade offs also. I doubt if I ever pull more than 4 amps out of the DNA30. IF everything goes as expected, I could even use a lesser battery. OTOH, I've seen failures with those 10/18 amp batteries because I did something stupid and I was nowhere near their rating at the time. The bottom line is I'm willing to buy and carry two batteries to have 4200 mah available instead of using one battery with 2900 mah.

 

[Quoiyaien]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/rader2146/3500-calculating-battery-drain-current.html

Mech mods are one thing, but when dealing with regulated voltage you have input and output to consider.

The 3.7 is the rated voltage of the battery. It was just a ballpark figure to show you the math. If you read my post, I mentioned that a higher battery voltage will have lower amp draw, and lower voltage higher amps. Remember, the volt:amp ratio is different at the battery than it is at the 510 connection. I am talking about the battery specifically, or the "input" side of the equation.

heres the formula again:

input amperage = (power setting / efficiency losses) / voltage of battery UNDER LOAD, not resting. This can vary between age and brand of battery due to varying internal resistances, so I use the rated voltage for simplicity. )

to figure out whats going on at the 510 connection you just need basic ohms law. 30 watts, lets say 2.0 ohm resistance, gives you ~3.9 amps at ~7.8 volts. (simple E^2 = P x R, and I^2 = P / R) thats the easy side of the equation. So at the battery, you have ~3.7v and 8.7 amps and at the 510 connection you have 7.8v and 3.9 amps. the wattage is the same on both sides of the equation (when you compensate for efficiency losses on the input side.. no need on the output side, what you set is what you get)

Since this is a DNA device, I figured it was understood I was talking about a regulated circuit. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Hoosier]

With a 2 Ohm resistance you are going to have 3.87 amps, with a 0.5 Ohm resistance, you will be pulling 7.75 amps.

I want to clarify that line.

Using either V=IR or V= sq.rt(PR) The output with a 2 Ohm resistance is 7.75 Volts at 3.87 Amps at 30 Watts, so the battery is outputting those 30 Watts at it's fixed voltage. The 0.5 Ohm load is also at 30 Watts output with 30 Watts input. (Actually a tad more than 30 Watts is being supplied by the battery due to the inefficiencies.)

To output 30 Watts, regardless of the load resistance; a fresh battery at 4.2 Volts, the battery is outputting 7.7 Amps with the assumption of 93% efficiency. (I=(30W/4.2V)/0.93) While on a nominally charged battery at 3.7 Volts the battery is outputting 8.7 Amps. So on a low battery of 3.2 Volts the battery has to supply 10 Amps of current.

It is the worst case scenario of a 3.2 Volt battery supplying the DNA-30 at full output Wattage with that 10 Amps that you'd want to apply your safety factor to. It's not based on the maximum current output of the circuit, but the maximum power output that determines the power supply.

Only power is transferred. The potential (V) and flow (A) can be altered any-which-way between input and final output, but it is power that is transferred. (It applies to physics of non-subatomic things too.) It may seem like a fine point, but it helps prevent confusion when determining what power supply (battery) is needed if one remembers it's all about power and determine the power needed first and then work with the battery voltages to determine current draw requirements of the battery.

It is way too often I see folks saying something along the lines of, My VW and/or VV device is outputting X amps so I need a X amp battery. (Which would only work if the VW/VV was magic and altered the battery voltage at the battery.) This mistaken idea comes about because they are not remembering basic physics that power is the only thing transferred.

 

[bilboda]

........
To output 30 Watts, regardless of the load resistance; a fresh battery at 4.2 Volts, the battery is outputting 7.7 Amps with the assumption of 93% efficiency. (I=(30W/4.2V)/0.93) While on a nominally charged battery at 3.7 Volts the battery is outputting 8.7 Amps. So on a low battery of 3.2 Volts the battery has to supply 10 Amps of current.

It is the worst case scenario of a 3.2 Volt battery supplying the DNA-30 at full output Wattage with that 10 Amps that you'd want to apply your safety factor to. It's not based on the maximum current output of the circuit, but the maximum power output that determines the power supply.
.............
QUOTE]

Your explanation is clear and understandable. Thanks. If you look at a discharge chart on most IMR batteries, they spend a considerable amount of their mah at below 3.7 volts. Figuring the tube, springs etc in. we are probably never supplying 4.2 volts to the DNA chip. I suspect as much as 0.5 volts is lost to the mechanical pieces, maybe more. And there is internal battery resistance as well. The battery may be functional at 10 amps at the 3.2 volt level for a relatively long time.

I mention this in regards to your point that the safety factor is applied at the worst case of 3.2 volts and 10 amps.
Given that, would you recommend a 10 amp battery with 18 amp 5-6 second bursts?
I think not but I think you know more so would like your recommendation.

 

[Griff.J]

argue, argue, argue.. LOL. Just follow the recommendations of Evolv, get a battery rated for 12 amps continuous if you're going to use the DNA30. Can you use your trusty AW IMR 18650 2000mAh, probably, sure, why not. But in the end pick up some 12 amp batteries or better.

There might not be any traffic at an intersection but if the lights are red, you don't go. (yes that's a law, not a recommendation but you get the point).

 

[ronpaek100]

My head hurts from all this lol.. someone should bring Brandon from Evolv in this thread to answer all the questions.

 

[Quoiyaien]

That is a great explanation Hoosier

 

[Hoosier]

I mention this in regards to your point that the safety factor is applied at the worst case of 3.2 volts and 10 amps.
Given that, would you recommend a 10 amp battery with 18 amp 5-6 second bursts?
I think not but I think you know more so would like your recommendation.

No, I would apply a safety factor to the expected maximum discharge of the battery and buy a battery that can meet the maximum discharge + safety factor.

The safety factor does more than just account for variances in battery manufacturing. It also gives a cushion to the battery's overall life expectancy. (Helps the battery be a good battery for a longer period of time.)

It's one of the reasons it drives me nuts that finding battery data can be difficult, if not impossible at times. All the cell data is out there, but once a company wraps that cell in a shrink wrap label, they can put darn near anything on that label and you have no idea what cell they actually used or if any of the numbers on the label are close enough to the truth that it might be considered true under certain circumstances, or it is just all made up.

 

[turbocad6]

I don't know. I mean if my amg redlines at 7k, I'm not afraid to push it past 5,500 just to be "safe" when amg themselves spec 7k as the maximum acceptable rpm. it's perfectly fine to shift at up to 7k so up to 7k it is (and sometimes a little more)

if the speed limit is 55, I'm not afraid to go over 48mph just to be "safe", it's perfectly fine to go up to 55 no problem, so 55 it is (and sometimes a little more)

by the same token I don't see it as being "unsafe" to use a battery up to it's stated maximum safe, within spec rating. I don't see any reason why all dna30's must use 22amp continuous output specified batteries just to be 'safe". I don't see anyone ever being able to push that 10a-18amp pulse battery past it's usable specs. just not going to happen, not probable at all, AND this is accounting for the odd chance that the dna is being torture tested rather than just used for vaping, where it will almost always certainly be well below the redline of "safe" operation.

when a "safe within spec" is provided by the manufacturer it is usually giving you that safety buffer, they don't test it and it blows up at 10.5 amps so they just throw a 10 amp continuous rating on it, no, I'm sure that 10 amp continuous is a spec provided with a buffer to account for differences in batteries from cell to cell and a certain amount of buffer already built in. the battery manufacturer themselves are telling you that 10 amps continuous, 18 amp pulse is 100% fine and 100% within spec and 100% within the acceptable and approved operating parameters of that battery, specing a battery well past this as a safety measure may be good advice for a mechanical with no other means of protection, but specing a battery well past what's actually possible to ever use in a worse case scenario is not required when you are dealing with a regulated mod that offers it's own protection

I agree that anyone actually saying this is inadequate and not safe is also saying that NO dna30 device is ever going to be safe in an 18500 configuration period which is just false.

using an inadequate battery with a dna30 will only result in unsatisfactory performance, and I think a 10 amp cont. 18 amp pulse spec'd battery will provide 100% of the performance that the dna30 can extract, and by having 2,900 mah capacity it is probably a better overall choice than a battery that can deliver much more amperage that can never be used but with a lower overall capacity, I suggest that the 10a/18a battery will probably perform better overall and give a little more use time because of it's extra capacity.

 

[ronpaek100]

I don't know. I mean if my amg redlines at 7k, I'm not afraid to push it past 5,500 just to be "safe" when amg themselves spec 7k as the maximum acceptable rpm. it's perfectly fine to shift at up to 7k so up to 7k it is (and sometimes a little more)

if the speed limit is 55, I'm not afraid to go over 48mph just to be "safe", it's perfectly fine to go up to 55 no problem, so 55 it is (and sometimes a little more)

by the same token I don't see it as being "unsafe" to use a battery up to it's stated maximum safe, within spec rating. I don't see any reason why all dna30's must use 22amp continuous output specified batteries just to be 'safe". I don't see anyone ever being able to push that 10a-18amp pulse battery past it's usable specs. just not going to happen, not probable at all, AND this is accounting for the odd chance that the dna is being torture tested rather than just used for vaping, where it will almost always certainly be well below the redline of "safe" operation.

when a "safe within spec" is provided by the manufacturer it is usually giving you that safety buffer, they don't test it and it blows up at 10.5 amps so they just throw a 10 amp continuous rating on it, no, I'm sure that 10 amp continuous is a spec provided with a buffer to account for differences in batteries from cell to cell and a certain amount of buffer already built in. the battery manufacturer themselves are telling you that 10 amps continuous, 18 amp pulse is 100% fine and 100% within spec and 100% within the acceptable and approved operating parameters of that battery, specing a battery well past this as a safety measure may be good advice for a mechanical with no other means of protection, but specing a battery well past what's actually possible to ever use in a worse case scenario is not required when you are dealing with a regulated mod that offers it's own protection

I agree that anyone actually saying this is inadequate and not safe is also saying that NO dna30 device is ever going to be safe in an 18500 configuration period which is just false.

using an inadequate battery with a dna30 will only result in unsatisfactory performance, and I think a 10 amp cont. 18 amp pulse spec'd battery will provide 100% of the performance that the dna30 can extract, and by having 2,900 mah capacity it is probably a better overall choice than a battery that can deliver much more amperage that can never be used but with a lower overall capacity, I suggest that the 10a/18a battery will probably perform better overall and give a little more use time because of it's extra capacity.

Would this battery 18500 rechargeable li-ion Sanyo Battery 3.7V
be sufficient for the dna20 then? this would be lower than the dna20 specs but it gives more battery life than the AW IMR 18490 battery of only 1100 mAH?

 

[Dr. Tranny]

I think the question of whether the Orbtronic batteries will work in the Futura isn't quite the issue. As long as the button (or nipple if you prefer) makes contact, the board should fire. The thing is, though, the Orbtronics are a touch longer and thicker than your standard IMR batteries, and don't quite fit in some devices. So the real question here shouldn't be whether the Orbtronics will work in the Futura, but whether they will fit. Is there sufficient clearance within the tube for them, and will the battery cap screw down and fully seat?

 

[undeadpine]

Hello, is there any way to purchase just the Circuitry? Love the look of the Mod but I'm trying to build build custom rig and want to be able to push a little. PM me If any way. Thanks!

 

[bilboda]

It's an ICR battery, so no it is not a good choice.

 

[ronpaek100]

It's an ICR battery, so no it is not a good choice.

Thanks bilboda

 

[turbocad6]

yeah, the mah capacity is not the only thing to look for, that sanyo is only rated at max discharging Current of 3.24A where the aw imr is an 8c battery high output and will easily deliver up to and above the maximum a dna20 could consume, that's not to say that the sanyo would be "dangerous" in a regulated mod, it just will not perform nearly as well as the AW which will be able to deliver 100% capacity of the dna20. the sanyo would not and the dna will sense that the battery voltage is dropping too much when firing if you are trying to run it at max.

with an evolv dna board the only way a battery is going to be in danger of venting and exploding is if there is a short in the mod between the batteries positive output and before the board connection, anything short of that no battery is really going to be dangerous, just inefficient and unable to support max output but the dna is safe, brandon himself said that the dna will not stress a battery beyond it's limit. it's a regulated electronically controlled mod, not a mech

 

[bilboda]

I think the question of whether the Orbtronic batteries will work in the Futura isn't quite the issue. As long as the button (or nipple if you prefer) makes contact, the board should fire. The thing is, though, the Orbtronics are a touch longer and thicker than your standard IMR batteries, and don't quite fit in some devices. So the real question here shouldn't be whether the Orbtronics will work in the Futura, but whether they will fit. Is there sufficient clearance within the tube for them, and will the battery cap screw down and fully seat?

williebb123 has posted that he uses them in the Futura with no issue.

 

[Griff.J]

Hello, is there any way to purchase just the Circuitry? Love the look of the Mod but I'm trying to build build custom rig and want to be able to push a little. PM me If any way. Thanks!

DNA20D or DNA30D by Evolv Vapor, look it up!

 

[xsaqzw]

I had my Provari for years, and got the v2 software. It's ....ing rock solid, and recently I've been using a VTR as well. I've been getting into RDAs and RDAs, but don't really like much mods that much.

I'm loving the idea of the Futura, and think I'm going to have to purchase one.

I have a question though:

On the manufacturer website, it shows the screen as being both vertical and horizontal. I see it now ships with the DNA30 software, instead. Which is ....ing awesome.. I just don't see an option for the screen to to vertical or horizontal.

Honest, I'd like it vertical.

Also, which top cap do you guys recommend? I was thinking the one with the deep drip well..

Thanks,
Nicholas

 

[Quoiyaien]

what you are seeing as the horizontal "screen" is actually the rocker switch to adjust the power setting.

 

[CABBA]

to make the screen horizontal, you just rotate the mod by 90 degrees..