Is temperature control worth it?

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VNeil

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I haven't seen them. I've seen some junk mods being an issue as well as people not building very well. An atty should not randomly change resistance, it's as simple as that.
I posted what I posted in order to try to educate people as to the potential problems with TC. I've seen many discussions surrounding the very popular Kanger Subtank Mini, for example, and problems people had with it when used for TC. Other specific Atty's have come up multiple times so I assume some Atty's just are not as well engineered in that way. And remember, when this gear was designed, there was no "requirement" that they maintain resistance through all their connections to within 0.02 ohm or so. In a normal mod no one would ever notice or care. But now it's critical.

(I use an STM as my primary TC topper and followed a suggestion from a member here to tighten down the positive pin that extends below the RBA deck. He seemed to think that solved the problem a lot of people seem to have with that topper, and so far it's worked for me too although I was not having as much trouble as others have had, maybe because I tightened down that pin by habit although not as tight as I did after talking to him. That's just one example of a KNOWN issue with a very popular atty.)

My first reply here was as follows: " I think my EVIC-VT does a pretty good job of controlling and, by extension, limiting temp.". I like TC, I use it every day. I'm going to buy an EVIC VTC mini as a 2nd TC mod so I can drip and use a tank without swapping and reconfiguring. I'm a believer, but I'm not a fanboy. it is what it is. So I wanted to point out the *potential* issues so people understand the deal and how to work down the problem resolution tree instead of giving up, as I've seen a few do.

You may not have had problems with your specific Atty's, or your TC mod (I'm not convinced that all the resistance drift is in the Atty, there is just no way to be sure). I have had problems. I had one this morning, after recoiling a Derringer clone with Ti last night. It worked fine last night but this morning I just couldn't get a good strong hit from it. I set it aside and vaped a Troll RBA in TC mode for a couple hours. Then went back to the Derringer and now it is vaping fine in TC mode. Can you tell me why that was so? I doubt you or anyone else can since none of us really have the instrumentation to do the measurements that would be necessary.

"An atty should not randomly change resistance, it's as simple as that."

The fact is that a typical Atty has at least a half dozen mechanical electrical connections. The inside of an Atty is a very hostile environment for such sensitive electrical connections. Everything is coated in juice, and some connections are coated in crud from incompletely vaporized juice components. One of the weak points, in my humble opinion, is the typical coil posts in RDAs. They are typically a threaded tube, with a hole in the side, with a screw that tightens down from the top. In most RDA's, that post is not plugged underneath the hole within which the coil leg is inserted. So in order to tighten the screw enough to get what I think is a good mechanical/electrical connection I would more often than not chop the coil leg in half. I'm thinking about buying a second Royal Hunter dripper for TC, partly because I really like that RDA, but also because the maker put a lot of thought into this problem of broken coil legs, adding a plug under the coil hole and beveling the screws. So I should be able to tighten that RDA down as tight as I want without breaking leads. These are the kinds of things that I know I seem to have to think through to get this right. This is a whole lot more effort than what is needed in a normal mod, where a drift of a tenth of an ohm would never be noticed except maybe in an extremely low subohm build (which personally I am not into). And I think these things should be talked about and discussed so TC newbies know what they *may* be up against.

You are entitled to your opinion that everything should always be perfect, implying that any variance is some sort of failure on the user's part, but my strong opinion is that it is a very problematic environment and resistance drift is more expected behavior than some anomaly. And I think it is proven by all the discussions of problems people have with TC, most of which are likely due to resistance drift.

Despite all the above, I want to stress that I have generally had a very good experience with TC now, with about 6 weeks of TC vaping behind me. But it is not as simple as a normal mod setup, nor has it been 100%.
 

SomeTexan

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I posted what I posted in order to try to educate people as to the potential problems with TC. I've seen many discussions surrounding the very popular Kanger Subtank Mini, for example, and problems people had with it when used for TC. Other specific Atty's have come up multiple times so I assume some Atty's just are not as well engineered in that way. And remember, when this gear was designed, there was no "requirement" that they maintain resistance through all their connections to within 0.02 ohm or so. In a normal mod no one would ever notice or care. But now it's critical.

(I use an STM as my primary TC topper and followed a suggestion from a member here to tighten down the positive pin that extends below the RBA deck. He seemed to think that solved the problem a lot of people seem to have with that topper, and so far it's worked for me too although I was not having as much trouble as others have had, maybe because I tightened down that pin by habit although not as tight as I did after talking to him. That's just one example of a KNOWN issue with a very popular atty.)

My first reply here was as follows: " I think my EVIC-VT does a pretty good job of controlling and, by extension, limiting temp.". I like TC, I use it every day. I'm going to buy an EVIC VTC mini as a 2nd TC mod so I can drip and use a tank without swapping and reconfiguring. I'm a believer, but I'm not a fanboy. it is what it is. So I wanted to point out the *potential* issues so people understand the deal and how to work down the problem resolution tree instead of giving up, as I've seen a few do.

You may not have had problems with your specific Atty's, or your TC mod (I'm not convinced that all the resistance drift is in the Atty, there is just no way to be sure). I have had problems. I had one this morning, after recoiling a Derringer clone with Ti last night. It worked fine last night but this morning I just couldn't get a good strong hit from it. I set it aside and vaped a Troll RBA in TC mode for a couple hours. Then went back to the Derringer and now it is vaping fine in TC mode. Can you tell me why that was so? I doubt you or anyone else can since none of us really have the instrumentation to do the measurements that would be necessary.

"An atty should not randomly change resistance, it's as simple as that."

The fact is that a typical Atty has at least a half dozen mechanical electrical connections. The inside of an Atty is a very hostile environment for such sensitive electrical connections. Everything is coated in juice, and some connections are coated in crud from incompletely vaporized juice components. One of the weak points, in my humble opinion, is the typical coil posts in RDAs. They are typically a threaded tube, with a hole in the side, with a screw that tightens down from the top. In most RDA's, that post is not plugged underneath the hole within which the coil leg is inserted. So in order to tighten the screw enough to get what I think is a good mechanical/electrical connection I would more often than not chop the coil leg in half. I'm thinking about buying a second Royal Hunter dripper for TC, partly because I really like that RDA, but also because the maker put a lot of thought into this problem of broken coil legs, adding a plug under the coil hole and beveling the screws. So I should be able to tighten that RDA down as tight as I want without breaking leads. These are the kinds of things that I know I seem to have to think through to get this right. This is a whole lot more effort than what is needed in a normal mod, where a drift of a tenth of an ohm would never be noticed except maybe in an extremely low subohm build (which personally I am not into). And I think these things should be talked about and discussed so TC newbies know what they *may* be up against.

You are entitled to your opinion that everything should always be perfect, implying that any variance is some sort of failure on the user's part, but my strong opinion is that it is a very problematic environment and resistance drift is more expected behavior than some anomaly. And I think it is proven by all the discussions of problems people have with TC, most of which are likely due to resistance drift.

Despite all the above, I want to stress that I have generally had a very good experience with TC now, with about 6 weeks of TC vaping behind me. But it is not as simple as a normal mod setup, nor has it been 100%.

If you care for your gear properly, resistance will not vary. Clean any contacts and make sure they are tight. Sure, loose contacts will lead to problems, but they shouldn't be loose in the first place. That is basic maintenance. I don't know if I am .... about keeping my stuff working as I think it should, or if others are just to lazy to do what is needed, but that's very important to me. Bad contacts lead to heat build up, voltage drop and potential arcing. Not something that I like to allow. If you want zero maintenance, light a cig. If you are want to stay away from cigs, learn to maintain your gear.
 

VNeil

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If you care for your gear properly, resistance will not vary. Clean any contacts and make sure they are tight. Sure, loose contacts will lead to problems, but they shouldn't be loose in the first place. That is basic maintenance. I don't know if I am .... about keeping my stuff working as I think it should, or if others are just to lazy to do what is needed, but that's very important to me. Bad contacts lead to heat build up, voltage drop and potential arcing. Not something that I like to allow. If you want zero maintenance, light a cig. If you are want to stay away from cigs, learn to maintain your gear.
Statements like the above are pure fanboyism. Do I maintain my gear? Yes? Do I spend endless hours obsessing over it? No. I have a regiment that worked, at least pre-TC. Do you spend endless hours? Maybe you do. Vaping is only a small part of my life. Was my maintenance good enough to keep my VV/VW mods going without issue? Absolutely. Is it good enough for TC? Maybe not. Time will tell.
 

SomeTexan

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Statements like the above are pure fanboyism. Do I maintain my gear? Yes? Do I spend endless hours obsessing over it? No. I have a regiment that worked, at least pre-TC. Do you spend endless hours? Maybe you do. Vaping is only a small part of my life. Was my maintenance good enough to keep my VV/VW mods going without issue? Absolutely. Is it good enough for TC? Maybe not. Time will tell.
Hours obsessing over? Lmao, maybe if I was mentally challenged, cross eyed and missing all my fingers... Maybe monthly I will tear down an atty and give it a good cleaning and contact polish, takes less than 10 min. Every couple weeks I will use a pencil eraser to clean the pin on my mod. It's not hard or time consuming. But, I build cars and r/c vehicles for fun so I am mechanically inclined. I build race engines, so simple maintenance on my vape gear is nothing. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Edit: if properly maintaining my gear is being a fanboy in your opinion, maybe you should go back to cigs. I wouldn't want your lack of maintenance to cause a problem and get you or someone else hurt. Doesn't matter if you use temp control or not, you need to maintain your gear correctly. Careless people are making news headlines fairly often now, you don't need to be one of them.
 
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SomeTexan

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It is obvious you want to argue for the sake of arguing so I'll give you that last word. I'm sure there is more than enough data here for people to come to their own conclusions.
I'm not arguing just to argue, now I am trying to impress upon you the importance to caring for your gear. Nothing to do with temp control, you need to keep your gear clean and properly tightened. Don't damage your stuff or yourself because you are careless. I can't believe the number of people that think vaping is as simple as lighting a cig. You use a cig once and throw it away. Your mods should last a while. Cigs don't use electrical current and potentially dangerous batteries either. Be safe with this stuff, it can hurt you.
 

WattWick

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It isn't a mech mod, why should the ohm's bother you? Sure, if I slapped my .07 ohm Nickel build on a mech there would be problems, but it's a non issue on a TC mod.

Just speaking in generalities here. Not a comment on TC, really.

A battery does not care what kind of device tries to pull any given amount of power out of it. No regulation circuit will (currently) prevent you from inserting the wrong chemistry battery - or pull too much power out of it.

Battery safety is all about using the right battery the right way. It has very little to do with mech vs regulated.
 

Hitcat44

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It is obvious you want to argue for the sake of arguing

:lol:
Ladies & Gents; My humble Nomination for Hypocritical/Narcissistic Post of the Century.

Seriously,,, Why must every Thread become your personal Hi-jacked "Bridge" o_O
Let It Go & Give It All a Rest.
 
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VNeil

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You seem to be arguing I don't care for my gear. I do basically the same as you describe, maybe more because I usually clean my mod and atty positive pins with an eraser every time I switch atty's, or at least weekly on my workhouse setups. I've been vaping for 15 months, I chain vape all day. I've never found any degradation in my contacts, such as that expected from arcing and etc.

The amount of maintenance needed to keep an entire mod circuit stable to 0.01 ohm is far, far more than what is needed to keep gear working safely. TC takes this to a whole new level that a lot of people can not understand until they understand the sensitivity of the temperature measurement.

I suspect that if you got a hundred electrical engineers in a room, with no skin in the vape game, and showed them some TC setups, educating them on the hostility of the environment inside an atty, and told them that it was a mission critical requirement to keep the system resistance stable to 0.01 ohm they would laugh. I don't think that would ever be done in a typical commercial design, at least not one built to the low price points we work at. Maybe a space shuttle. We are trying to do something here that is not "natural", or typical of electrical circuit requirements. I'm not saying it can't be done, because in the real world it works for at least most people. Just that it is pushing some typical design envelopes considerably and people should be aware of that.
 

SomeTexan

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Just speaking in generalities here. Not a comment on TC, really.

A battery does not care what kind of device tries to pull any given amount of power out of it. No regulation circuit will (currently) prevent you from inserting the wrong chemistry battery - or pull too much power out of it.

Battery safety is all about using the right battery the right way. It has very little to do with mech vs regulated.

Of course you have to use good batteries rated high enough. But, regulated mods usualy have boost systems that will get you more voltage than would normally be avalible. Plus, my mod will not fire if the batteries can't keep up with the demand. It says low batt and doesn't fire. But, as you said, you need the proper batteries for the power you are running.
 

Alien Traveler

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OK, I am not in TC, but your comment is something I'd like to address.
I vape to vape, not to maintain my equipment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It will work better.
Hours obsessing over? Lmao, maybe if I was mentally challenged, cross eyed and missing all my fingers... Maybe monthly I will tear down an atty and give it a good cleaning and contact polish, takes less than 10 min.
Never did it. If need arise then sure. But to produce additional wear and tear on threads and O-rings without real need?
Every couple weeks I will use a pencil eraser to clean the pin on my mod.
Never did it. To wipe a drop of juice - yes, sometimes. But to risk of putting eraser's dust between insulator and contact pin without real need?
....
Edit: if properly maintaining my gear is being a fanboy in your opinion, maybe you should go back to cigs. I wouldn't want your lack of maintenance to cause a problem and get you or someone else hurt. Doesn't matter if you use temp control or not, you need to maintain your gear correctly. Careless people are making news headlines fairly often now, you don't need to be one of them.
Do your really advice people to go back to smoking if they are not fanboys of excessive maintenance?

P.S. I use only slightly flavored juices, it helps to minimize maintenance. It was almost two months since I replaced wicks in my tanks. Do not remember when I recoiled them. I love low-maintenance vaping.
 
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SomeTexan

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OK, I am not in TC, but your comment is something I'd like to address.
I vape to vape, not to maintain my equipment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It will work better.
Never did it. If need arise then sure. But to produce additional wear and tear on threads and O-rings without real need? Never did it. To wipe a drop of juice - yes, sometimes. But to risk of putting eraser's dust between insulator and contact pin without real need?
Do your really advice people to go back to smoking if they are not fanboys of excessive maintenance?

P.S. I use only slightly flavored juices, it helps to minimize maintenance. It was almost two months since I replaced wicks in my tanks. Do not remember when I recoiled them. I love low-maintenance vaping.

Do you wait until your engine blows to change the oil in your vehicle? Preventative maintenance is a good thing to keep your equipment up to par.

O-rings are cheap and thread wear is minimal if you don't crossthread anything.

Eraser dust can easily be blown out of a 510 connecter. Not an issue at all.

I would rather them smoke than end up being a statistic for the anti-vaping people.

That is your choice, I like flavors I enjoy. If unflavored or very light flavor, good for you.
 

MagicJosh

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If your a flavor guy (like me) you will like it. I have 3 temp control devices and they all work very similar. from sigelei to eleaf they all work the same. I would recommend getting something like the ipv 75 or the sigelei 75. The sigelei is what I got. But you could get the istick 40 and be just as happy. I would suggest getting a single coil kayfun deck kind of tank. It works best with Lemo's and kayfuns (For me). The right setup you will be chucking clouds and getting good flavor all in one unlike an ego style setup (which give great flavor as well but, don't give big clouds).
 
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SomeTexan

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You seem to be arguing I don't care for my gear. I do basically the same as you describe, maybe more because I usually clean my mod and atty positive pins with an eraser every time I switch atty's, or at least weekly on my workhouse setups. I've been vaping for 15 months, I chain vape all day. I've never found any degradation in my contacts, such as that expected from arcing and etc.

The amount of maintenance needed to keep an entire mod circuit stable to 0.01 ohm is far, far more than what is needed to keep gear working safely. TC takes this to a whole new level that a lot of people can not understand until they understand the sensitivity of the temperature measurement.

I suspect that if you got a hundred electrical engineers in a room, with no skin in the vape game, and showed them some TC setups, educating them on the hostility of the environment inside an atty, and told them that it was a mission critical requirement to keep the system resistance stable to 0.01 ohm they would laugh. I don't think that would ever be done in a typical commercial design, at least not one built to the low price points we work at. Maybe a space shuttle. We are trying to do something here that is not "natural", or typical of electrical circuit requirements. I'm not saying it can't be done, because in the real world it works for at least most people. Just that it is pushing some typical design envelopes considerably and people should be aware of that.

You said it yourself, it works for most people. It's the ones that are too lazy to maintain their gear that have issues...
 

Boden

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This thread amuses me, carry on.

:D

I've been using temperature control for six years now. At first it was done by varing the resistance of the coil to match the airflow to achieve the temp you wanted, then came variable voltage which helped keep you from having to take slower drags as the battery voltage dropped. Then came the autopilot version called variable wattage. :)

I have no use for "wick protection TC" as I don't get dry hits.
 

JMarca

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You said it yourself, it works for most people. It's the ones that are too lazy to maintain their gear that have issues...
I'm a tinkerer, model plane builder and computer geek, I do it for fun. It's a hobby I love to tear these things apart, build them from scratch, maintain then and sometimes just take them apart just to see what makes them tick.

I'm also a vaper, I've been vaping over 4 years now. I clean or rebuild my coils, I change out my cotton on a regular basis and I clean out my drip tips daily when they've been used. I have NEVER heard of anyone who breaks down an atty or a mod and cleans their contacts with an eraser to fix voltage drop or for fun.
 

SomeTexan

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I'm a tinkerer, model plane builder and computer builder, I do it for fun. It's a hobby I love to tear these things apart, build them from scratch, maintain then and sometimes just take them apart just to see what makes them tick.

I'm also a vaper, I've been vaping over 4 years now. I clean or rebuild my coils, I change out my cotton on a regular basis and I clean out my drip tips daily when they've been used. I have NEVER heard of anyone who breaks down an atty or a mod and cleans their contacts with an eraser to fix voltage drop or for fun.
I never said "for fun." I am a firm believer in preventative maintenance. If you never let a problem develop, you won't have a problem. Do you wait until your computer overheats to clean the heat sinks or do you keep it clean so it doesn't overheat in the first place?
 
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edyle

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The voltage drop would remain constant regardless of temp. A non-issue. The temperature induced resistance change would still be the same.

The "voltage drop" is caused by resistance in the circuit from things like the contact point like the centerpin to centerpin contact point, the electrical contact at the threading points, the contacts at the ends of the battery etc. This is what I refer to simply as 'contact resistance'. It is the reason that mech users who run very low ohm coils, use copper mods.

When the contact resistance of your tc mod setup is 0.1 ohms, or fluctuating between 0.1 and 0.2 ohms when you tilt the mod, and your coil is only 0.1 ohms, you are going to get performance problems.
 

tj99959

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    What would be the point of vaping at 3 watts? I doubt either my Nautilus or my Micro GDC would even make vapor that low.

    But you're not using a 0.00001 ohm coil at ~400 degrees either ;)
    Seriously tho' you would be surprised by how low the wattage actually drops to when using TC.
    After the coil reaches temperature, it takes very little power to maintain that temperature.
    Same reason you turn the stove down after the water comes to a boil.

    Also:
    It's obvious to me that a lot of folks on here have no idea of how a regulated PV uses amperage.
     
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