Is the FDA Really Not the One to Worry About .. ?

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jwag1973

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Uncle Willie said:The continued expectation that the USERS should all fight the good fight, when those that are financially benefiting from the sale of the goods play a side role and continue with business as usual makes no sense to me ..

You know, as long as I have been entrenched in this forum, and commented on b.s articles, written my legislators, I have actually forgotten your very telling point. There are thousands of companies, where the hell are they. We see a few at city hall, to fight, but thats it. And your right, nobody has been worried. I speak to B&M owners.

Kevin from Vapers Place started the AVA, which was supposed to be funded by the vendors. It doesn't even get mentioned on his show anymore. I hate to speculate, but I wouldn't surprised if there was lack of support. Thats why, though many are opposed to AEMSA, I applaud them. At least they are doing something.

IMO you bring up very good points. Let them regulate, let them fight! Thats not to say I will stop doing my part, but really, they need to step up.

This has been a major concern and complaint of mine from the start.

The owners of the B&M's I've spoken with seem to welcome many of the predicted regulations. Especially internet sales!

They will most likely profit greatly once they can price gouge, set the market....kinda like BT!
 

2coils

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This has been a major concern and complaint of mine from the start.

The owners of the B&M's I've spoken with seem to welcome many of the predicted regulations. Especially internet sales!

They will most likely profit greatly once they can price gouge, set the market....kinda like BT!
They don't realize what kind of wrath can be imposed on them. They may welcome internet bans or restrictions, who are they going to sell their products to? i What if the FDA breaks the industry or makes it significantly less appealing to switch to e-cigs? There are too many possibilities for them NOT to act. I know if I were an owner, I'd be fighting tooth and nail for my livelihood!
 

jwag1973

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They don't realize what kind of wrath can be imposed on them. They may welcome internet bans or restrictions, who are they going to sell their products to? i What if the FDA breaks the industry or makes it significantly less appealing to switch to e-cigs? There are too many possibilities for them NOT to act. I know if I were an owner, I'd be fighting tooth and nail for my livelihood!

I couldn't agree more! It's mind boggling they're not leading the charge! You'd think they'd be telling every customer who comes through the door what's going on, and how to get involved.

As far as making ecig's less appealing...I believe they'll definitely try to do that!

It seems as if they'd rather see everyone go back to cigs from where I'm standing.
 

Uncle Willie

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They don't realize what kind of wrath can be imposed on them. They may welcome internet bans or restrictions, who are they going to sell their products to? i What if the FDA breaks the industry or makes it significantly less appealing to switch to e-cigs? There are too many possibilities for them NOT to act. I know if I were an owner, I'd be fighting tooth and nail for my livelihood!

Although I don't own an e-cig business, I have been a small business owner for 35 years .. and I would be fighting tooth and nail if it were me .. that's why I posted that I simply cannot understand the lack of action by the Vendors and the expectation that the users should be doing the work for them ..
 

Vermonster13

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A chain of vapor specific stores would go a long way to helping in this fight. Many of the small shops that have come about have neither the resources or the knowledge to fight for us on the scale we are approaching. To many diverse wants, goals and agendas to come to result that would be fulfilling to a majority. Fighting for crumbs while the pie is stolen out from under us.
 

graffiti

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Although I don't own an e-cig business, I have been a small business owner for 35 years .. and I would be fighting tooth and nail if it were me .. that's why I posted that I simply cannot understand the lack of action by the Vendors and the expectation that the users should be doing the work for them ..

I think one of the problems is how incredibly decentralized the industry is. The majority of hardware comes from China. The majority of juices are made by small companies with a few employees (or so it seems).
 

CabinetGuyScott

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It's ridiculous! This is a prime example of how the government works! The truth is...they could careless what the FDA has to say, they want to collect taxes and control everything we do!

It doesn't benefit the government if the public knows about the reduced harm vaping provides. The high success rates vaping has over all other forms of quitting aids combined. They sell it as the devil using blatant, outright, misleading, fact-twisting lies!

We've gave up so many civil liberties trying not to offend others! Where does it stop? If people in this country don't wake up soon, we will become more of a socialist society!

I thought this was the land of the free, and the home of the brave!


We've gave up so many civil liberties trying not to offend others!

Someone please show the world where in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution itself, there is explicit or implicit God-given and / or legal right to not be offended

As has been said in recent threads, it is hopefully the watershed moment when the people finally are heard when we say:
Enough Already!

This is an issue that touches 20%+++ of the population and will literally and factually cost millions of lives.
 

Uncle Willie

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A chain of vapor specific stores would go a long way to helping in this fight. Many of the small shops that have come about have neither the resources or the knowledge to fight for us on the scale we are approaching. To many diverse wants, goals and agendas to come to result that would be fulfilling to a majority. Fighting for crumbs while the pie is stolen out from under us.

If your business is being threatened, then logically, you'd want to try and do something about it .. especially if it actually makes money .. shops / mail order and B&M .. liquid makers as well, have sprung up like weeds over the last couple years ..

Myself, I believe a large portion of these people are just in it for the quick cash grab in a market that has essentially exploded and is easy to get into with a relatively low start up cost .. and when and if the legislative pressure gets hot, they will exit and move on to the next sham-wow .. ;)
 

navigator2011

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We've gave up so many civil liberties trying not to offend others!

Someone please show the world where in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution itself, there is explicit or implicit God-given and / or legal right to not be offended

As has been said in recent threads, it is hopefully the watershed moment when the people finally are heard when we say:
Enough Already!

This is an issue that touches 20%+++ of the population and will literally and factually cost millions of lives.

It seems to me that the other 80% feels quite justified in offending the 20%, it’s been that way for years. If you really think about it, doesn’t it seem that generally the 80% percent just wishes the 20% would hurry up and die off? It’s only when a close relative or friend is struggling with smoking or disease that members of the 80% become a little sympathetic. But taken in the abstract, the 80% percent couldn’t care less about the 20%. I honestly think this whole vaping movement might just get crushed through a collage of bans across the country and the general brainwashing of society. No doubt others will disagree, but it seems to me that no matter who says what about the positives of vaping and the benefits to smokers, the march toward complete elimination of vaping remains unhindered. All that seems to matter is that vaping “looks like smoking,” and nothing else matters, end of story.

I am one of those characters that is terribly addicted to cigarettes, and I have been struggling to switch my addiction from cigs to vaping. For whatever reason, I have found that to be a great struggle. But I know that a big portion of that struggle is the growing negativity toward vaping. Rather than feeling supported in my efforts, I get the same evil stares from others when I’m vaping as when I am smoking. Obviously, this just leads to anger on my part. I already knew I am a leper as a smoker, but I hadn’t realized I would also be as a vaper. So, just like when smoking, I can look forward to hiding in a dumpster just to get a vape in peace. Additionally, it appears that I can look forward to relying on unsavory types just to buy juice and gear, too. Every time I read the news, there is something new that is off putting about vaping, and of course the EU vote is a whopper, foreshadowing a “new normal.” So, I am left wondering: why bother struggling to switch onto something that is just as reviled as my current addiction, is becoming banned everywhere, and might become harder to get than cigarettes? Pretty soon, we won’t even be able to relax at the beach or a park, or even in a lousy car park! It seems to me that the only way get any peace and not be controlled by puppet masters is to, perhaps, not need any nicotine.

Ok, so that turned into a rant/vent, and now I'll stop. But does anyone else get these types of thoughts every time they read the Legislation section of ECF?
 

CabinetGuyScott

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I had to quote your entire post here Fulgurant because you have so clearly and coherently struck-down every target tonyorion tossed up!!!

Outstanding!!!!!!

A must-read for everyone who ever hears the tired cliche but what about the children... Clive Bates (a world-class genius!) directly addresses this, and in every way-shape-&-form deals it impotent: We need to talk about the Children - the gateway effect examined

And for those who want more, please visit the ECF InfoZone and the E-Cigarette Summit presentations from November 2013

I personally believe the Summit presentations should be mandatory reading assignments for every single vapor!

Outstanding & so very well done Fulgurant!! :thumbs:



I'm 36. Virtually all of my male peers, and probably half of my female friends in high school and college smoked at least casually. Many smoked very casually, and I certainly wouldn't characterize them as smokers, but they were quite familiar with what it is to smoke a cigarette.

Now which of our anecdotal evidence is more compelling, mine or yours? More importantly, which is more relevant? I'd say neither.

Based on tobacco control's statistics, it's fairly uncontroversial to argue that the proportion of youth smokers has fallen, but it'd be a stretch to argue that youth smoking is now a rare thing, relative to smoking among the general population. I won't call you a liar; to the extent that I can offer any comment on the personal experiences you've shared with us, all I can do is to congratulate you for raising your daughter well: apparently she ran with the right crowds in school. I most assuredly did not. ;)



I don't doubt that it happens. Vaping may very well inhabit the perfect niche for people of all ages who seek petty rebellion. On the other hand, young people seeking petty rebellion tend to be those most inclined to take up smoking -- or they were before vaping came on the scene, anyway.



The bolded line is where you cross over into baseless fear-mongering. There's no reason to believe that vastly more minors vape than would smoke. Even the CDC didn't try to make that argument in their cooked-data study about under-age e-cig use. CDC may have tried to insinuate what you just said, but they wouldn't dare declare it outright as you have.

If anything, the data CDC collected suggests that the introduction of e-cigs has reduced cigarette consumption among middle and high school students. Most people would consider that a good thing, which is why the spin machine pointed instead at the year-to-year increase in the number of kids who had tried an e-cig. 'Cause, you know, it's super important and interesting to observe that a kid who tried an e-cig once in 2010 and never touched one ever again still counts in the tried-it category a year later.



The non-vaper has the right not to be coerced, just as the vaper has a right not to be coerced. That is, a non-vaper has every right to demand that no one vape on his property, or on property she rents or manages. The non-vaper also has every right to try to convince the owners/managers of properties he frequents to disallow vaping. Finally, the non-vaper has every right to complain about people vaping in any given situation -- in other words, the non-vaper has the right to do her small part to mold society's understanding of vaping etiquette, which is still, by the way, largely unsettled.

Apart from that? A non-vaper can always leave the area, when all else fails, just as anyone might choose to leave if he felt overwhelmed with an unpleasant aroma. That's what freedom means, not that any particular group, even a majority group, can give themselves the right never to be exposed to generally innocuous sights, sounds, or smells that annoy them.

I note here that the general public happily endured the odor of cigarettes for decades if not centuries; there was no credible support for government-enforced smoking restrictions until authorities successfully argued that second-hand smoke poses a significant health risk. Why should our response to public vaping be any different?



You describe a dichotomy where none exists: the moneyed interests are responsible for advancing the children's-new-addiction narrative. The extent to which that narrative might bespeak a justifiable concern remains in question, but what isn't (or shouldn't be) debatable is whether the concern trumps the rights of consenting adults: if the authorities are incapable of enforcing laws banning sales to minors, and if the parents are unable or unwilling to pick up the authorities' slack, why is that my problem?

"We can't keep kids from buying stuff they shouldn't buy, so the only solution is to make the stuff so unattractive or expensive that kids won't want to buy it! And oh by the way, we have no evidence that the forbidden stuff in this case actually represents any substantial danger to children even if they do use it." Crazy.
 

CabinetGuyScott

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I cannot think of any Industry that has grown to over a Billion Dollars in sales over just a few years and deals in goods that are essentially taken into your body that does not do some sort of Industry agreed upon self-regulation thru it's own trade group or organization ..

On what basis do you characterize the e-cig, and maybe even more specifically the e-liquids part of it, as not developing or applying self-regulation?

I see dozens and dozens of the e-liquid producers' sites showing pictures of their facilities & bragging about the their in-house quality control processes. How they have their products random sampled & tested by outside labs.

Although I may not agree with the not selling to minors issues, it is clear the majority of the 'players' (B&M & online) in the industry all have a very public position of NO SALES TO MINORS.

Any statement that doesn't first affirm the widespread self-regulation efforts that are very clearly in-place, and then expand to describe perceived deficiencies & ways to improve, just plays as an affirmation of the ANTZ assertions of 'unregulated' and fear mongering

And just for the record - I don't buy stuff that comes from someone's garage. I'm an intelligent consumer & look for reputable & known sources for the stuff I'm going to put in my body.
 

Uncle Willie

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On what basis do you characterize the e-cig, and maybe even more specifically the e-liquids part of it, as not developing or applying self-regulation?

I see dozens and dozens of the e-liquid producers' sites showing pictures of their facilities & bragging about the their in-house quality control processes. How they have their products random sampled & tested by outside labs.

Although I may not agree with the not selling to minors issues, it is clear the majority of the 'players' (B&M & online) in the industry all have a very public position of NO SALES TO MINORS.

Any statement that doesn't first affirm the widespread self-regulation efforts that are very clearly in-place, and then expand to describe perceived deficiencies & ways to improve, just plays as an affirmation of the ANTZ assertions of 'unregulated' and fear mongering

And just for the record - I don't buy stuff that comes from someone's garage. I'm an intelligent consumer & look for reputable & known sources for the stuff I'm going to put in my body.

I cannot think of any Industry that has grown to over a Billion Dollars in sales over just a few years and deals in goods that are essentially taken into your body that does not do some sort of Industry agreed upon self-regulation thru it's own trade group or organization ..
 

CabinetGuyScott

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It seems to me that the other 80% feels quite justified in offending the 20%, it’s been that way for years. If you really think about it, doesn’t it seem that generally the 80% percent just wishes the 20% would hurry up and die off? It’s only when a close relative or friend is struggling with smoking or disease that members of the 80% become a little sympathetic. But taken in the abstract, the 80% percent couldn’t care less about the 20%. I honestly think this whole vaping movement might just get crushed through a collage of bans across the country and the general brainwashing of society. No doubt others will disagree, but it seems to me that no matter who says what about the positives of vaping and the benefits to smokers, the march toward complete elimination of vaping remains unhindered. All that seems to matter is that vaping “looks like smoking,” and nothing else matters, end of story.

I am one of those characters that is terribly addicted to cigarettes, and I have been struggling to switch my addiction from cigs to vaping. For whatever reason, I have found that to be a great struggle. But I know that a big portion of that struggle is the growing negativity toward vaping. Rather than feeling supported in my efforts, I get the same evil stares from others when I’m vaping as when I am smoking. Obviously, this just leads to anger on my part. I already knew I am a leper as a smoker, but I hadn’t realized I would also be as a vaper. So, just like when smoking, I can look forward to hiding in a dumpster just to get a vape in peace. Additionally, it appears that I can look forward to relying on unsavory types just to buy juice and gear, too. Every time I read the news, there is something new that is off putting about vaping, and of course the EU vote is a whopper, foreshadowing a “new normal.” So, I am left wondering: why bother struggling to switch onto something that is just as reviled as my current addiction, is becoming banned everywhere, and might become harder to get than cigarettes? Pretty soon, we won’t even be able to relax at the beach or a park, or even in a lousy car park! It seems to me that the only way get any peace and not be controlled by puppet masters is to, perhaps, not need any nicotine.

Ok, so that turned into a rant/vent, and now I'll stop. But does anyone else get these types of thoughts every time they read the Legislation section of ECF?

Yes yes & yes. :(

But then I think about my own life-changing experience (fully expected to have an ashtray next to the bed & a .... in hand when I died), and read the countless testimonials of others.

The power & 'magic' of vaping is the infinite ways that allows a person to shape it and mold to fit their needs. Sometimes, and maybe it's the case for you, it takes some trial & error & learning to find that Goldilocks 'just-right' combination that will be the one to take you over the top, and away from a smoke-filled destiny.

I am fully confident that we are on the proverbial 'right side of history' here, and that the efforts will be successful to keep us all out of the 'dumpster'! :) :)

Hang in there Navigator! :thumb:
 

Uncle Willie

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It seems to me that the other 80% feels quite justified in offending the 20%, it’s been that way for years. If you really think about it, doesn’t it seem that generally the 80% percent just wishes the 20% would hurry up and die off?

It seems to me that the only way get any peace and not be controlled by puppet masters is to, perhaps, not need any nicotine.

But does anyone else get these types of thoughts every time they read the Legislation section of ECF?

The 80% continues to reap the taxation benefits of the 20% .. that's one of the reasons the additional taxation proposals crop up for us, the PV users .. so the 80% can get a piece of that pie as well ..

To totally quit the PV is really my goal .. gradually reducing nic mg from 24 to the 6 that I use now .. I quit the smokes with the PV, now I work toward gradually getting to zero nic ..

It's unlikely once something reaches critical mass that it will just go away quietly .. the PV Genie is Out of The Bottle .. it's now really a matter of control and taxation ..

Bottom line .. ?? It's a much healthier alternative to analogs .. and while it can be discouraging watching the various legislations unfold, if we all pitch in, including the Vendors, we can at least help shape what comes down in the future .. and that's the key .. shaping what we know will happen ..
 

Uma

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I had to quote your entire post here Fulgurant because you have so clearly and coherently struck-down every target tonyorion tossed up!!!

Outstanding!!!!!!

A must-read for everyone who ever hears the tired cliche but what about the children... Clive Bates (a world-class genius!) directly addresses this, and in every way-shape-&-form deals it impotent: We need to talk about the Children - the gateway effect examined

And for those who want more, please visit the ECF InfoZone and the E-Cigarette Summit presentations from November 2013

I personally believe the Summit presentations should be mandatory reading assignments for every single vapor!

Outstanding & so very well done Fulgurant!! :thumbs:

I'll second that!!!
 
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