Is the FDA Really Not the One to Worry About .. ?

[Uncle Willie]

Last night, I saw a segment on the local news about efforts to curtail, ban and regulate the PV market .. it also seems like "Calls to Action" pop up on ECF regularly, much more so in the last few months than in the past ..

So, is the FDA really the one to worry about, or are we really under attack at the State, County and City level .. ??

 

[Talyon]

All of the above mate.

 

[retired1]

Since the FDA is taking their time in putting out deeming regulations, the governmental agencies at all levels are taking it upon themselves to do the dirty work for them.

 

[2coils]

The states are probably playing right into their (FDA) hand. That letter of 40 Attorney Generals probably did them more harm than good. THE STATES are so up in arms about PV's, they feel like they have to act, and the Fda is sitting back laughing.

I KNOW its a crazy conspiracy theory, but it is convenient for the Fda to do nothing.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I don't know if it's really a conspiracy theory .. at the rate these new legislations seem to be coming up, it almost seems like a planned crackdown ..

 

[Endor]

I, too, am shocked at how much city/county/state activity there is to curtail ecigs.

I don't think it's a conspiracy either. It is simply a continuation of the government policies we have approved with our votes.... meddle in and control all things possible, and protect everybody from being offended.

I really wish the government would just leave me alone and let me live my life, enjoy the last remaining semblance of liberty, and pursue my happiness...

 

[Papa_Lazarou]

It's like taxes (in some cases, literally so) - federal, state, county, city. Evvvvverybody takes a cut.

We worry them. Loss of revenue. Loss of power. Loss of the antismoking victories that are widely held as some of the best social reforms ever. Well, we've got another thing coming, mister, if we think we can flout their authority.

 

[TLS01]

I really wish the government would just leave me alone and let me live my life, enjoy the last remaining semblance of liberty, and pursue my happiness...

Amen, Endor.

 

[jwag1973]

It's ridiculous! This is a prime example of how the government works! The truth is...they could careless what the FDA has to say, they want to collect taxes and control everything we do!

It doesn't benefit the government if the public knows about the reduced harm vaping provides. The high success rates vaping has over all other forms of quitting aids combined. They sell it as the devil using blatant, outright, misleading, fact-twisting lies!

We've gave up so many civil liberties trying not to offend others! Where does it stop? If people in this country don't wake up soon, we will become more of a socialist society!

I thought this was the land of the free, and the home of the brave!

 

[NoVaWolf]

Agreed with all of the above... I've noticed that as media has increased reporting the size of the market and it's expected growth, the state and local agencies are systematically increasing their ability to 'get a piece of the pie' via taxation and licensing fees. Right now, it still seems to be a very grass-roots, individualized, distributed market, but the PTBs certainly don't want to leave it that way.

As a fairly new vaper - 4.5 proud, happy months - I can say that it doesn't seem to be truly mainstream yet, so for a lot of politicians it must seem like a safe target. It's getting there, I know, but when my neurologist recommended it to me, my only prior exposure had been a HuffPost news article. It seems like so long ago to me now, but that was really just a few months ago and I live in a fairly politically-active metropolis. So for the average voter, the 'for the kids' argument and 'let's tax it' argument likely carry a lot of weight. Then the FDA thing puts us in a catch-22 - our best argument for the public is that it's more effective than anything else so far as a stop smoking aid, but we can't use that as a public argument because of the FDA implications... Neatly boxed, huh?!

But hey - one thing the tea party taught us is that a minority can be seen and treated as a majority if they're loud enough, so if we stay loud enough, perhaps we can stay out of that box that they're trying to pin us into. Worth a shot, anyway, as I know all who take the time on this sub agree!

 

[Mantrid9]

Then the FDA thing puts us in a catch-22 - our best argument for the public is that it's more effective than anything else so far as a stop smoking aid, but we can't use that as a public argument because of the FDA implications... Neatly boxed, huh?!

Dam straight we can use that as a argument! I'm not selling anything, I can say what I want! Just because the ecig companies are banned from telling the truth, doesn't mean the end users can't tell the truth.

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"
Patrick Henry


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk

 

[NoVaWolf]

Dam straight we can use that as a argument! I'm not selling anything, I can say what I want! Just because the ecig companies are banned from telling the truth, doesn't mean the end users can't tell the truth.

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"
Patrick Henry

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk

I meant that mainly about mass media ads to combat the ANTZ media, but agreed entirely with you on grass-roots. I certainly am a vocal 'vape prophet' in person to friends and acquaintances about how effective vaping is, and in print to representatives who want my continued vote - and all who have known me as a 30+ year former smoker now see me as 'proof of the pudding'. Vape out loud and proud - we will prevail if we don't let ourselves be silenced.

 

[soba1]

I can't remember the ECF members handle. But he did state that the FDA will let the local govts handle it, and I am seeing they are right.
I think the name of the member was Tom something or other

 

[GaryInTexas]

This is kinda like the Alamo. Your not sure how many are coming for you but your pretty sure it ain't good.

 

[Technohydra]

I can't remember the ECF members handle. But he did state that the FDA will let the local govts handle it, and I am seeing they are right.
I think the name of the member was Tom something or other

TomBaker is the name you are looking for, I believe. He's an interesting guy, and opinions about him are about as split as can be here. Some think he is ANTZ in disguise, some think he is the new vaping messiah, come to change our opinions about our futures, and the rest just listen and try to take what they can from watching him battle it out with some of the influential members.

While I tend to see a lot of his views as far too idealistic and 'sunny sky', the one thing I have agreed with him (partially) about is that the major concern is the local actions being taken. The local authorities have the power to put a lot bigger smash on the industry and users than the FDA is likely to do, and a lot sooner. Local government is allowed to be more restrictive than federal, and that can be scary. So even if the FDA said go ahead and vape, states could individually still attempt to pass legislation.

Where Tom and I (and a lot of others, Bill Godshall included, I believe) differ in opinions greatly is the idea that the FDA is not the major enemy. Whereas the local actions are the most concerning thing actually happening at the moment, the FDA can cancel the whole show all at once, and on a level that can't be undone locally. Whereas these local actions can happen, bans can occur, etc, once the FDA speaks (for the sake of argument, I am speaking from a fictional, 100% 'go ahead' FDA stance) and says it's ok to vape, the vaping community and industry have the opportunity to pursue those local actions in higher courts. Using the FDA ruling as fuel, they could stand a chance of having the old local actions modified or removed. But once the FDA has ruled, the localities have less recourse. The main avenue would be to go to the US Supreme court to challenge the ruling, but there aren't a lot of other avenues. (Please note, I am not a lawyer, and as such, these statements may not be fully correct. Please consult legal council for confirmations. This does not include someone claiming to be a legal expert online, anyone can claim that behind the shield anonymity).

 

[soba1]

TomBaker is the name you are looking for, I believe.

While I tend to see a lot of his views as far too idealistic and 'sunny sky', the one thing I have agreed with him (partially) about is that the major concern is the local actions being taken. The local authorities have the power to put a lot bigger smash on the industry and users than the FDA is likely to do, and a lot sooner.

Where Tom and I (and a lot of others, Bill Godshall included, I believe) differ in opinions greatly is the idea that the FDA is not the major enemy. Whereas the local actions are the most concerning thing actually happening at the moment, the FDA can cancel the whole show all at once, and on a level that can't be undone locally. (Please note, I am not a lawyer, and as such, these statements may not be fully correct. Please consult legal council for confirmations. This does not include someone claiming to be a legal expert online, anyone can claim that behind the shield anonymity).

Yes Tom Baker is the guy, with the onslaught of all these seemingly concerted local actions my head is spinning.
This is not by accident, while you are not an attorney your comment was very insightful.
If I can grow a pair and get off my rear, I am going to work on getting firefighters on our side.
Especially here in So. Cal or Ca. for that matter especially with this huge drought we are having.
Vaping is a heck of a lot safer for the overall community than smoking.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Some believe the State crackdowns are somehow related to the Tobacco Settlement agreement where States get a yearly check from BT that is tied to the number of analogs sold .. less analogs sold, less money from BT ..

A PV or other hardware, or liquid that is sold across the counter is a sales tax generating transaction .. and also providing jobs, rental or sale of commercial property, etc ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

Yes Tom Baker is the guy, with the onslaught of all these seemingly concerted local actions my head is spinning.
This is not by accident, while you are not an attorney your comment was very insightful.
If I can grow a pair and get off my rear, I am going to work on getting firefighters on our side.
Especially here in So. Cal or Ca. for that matter especially with this huge drought we are having.
Vaping is a heck of a lot safer for the overall community than smoking.

Did he not play Dr Who at one point .. ??

 

[Endor]

TomBaker is the name you are looking for, I believe. He's an interesting guy, and opinions about him are about as split as can be here. Some think he is ANTZ in disguise, some think he is the new vaping messiah, come to change our opinions about our futures, and the rest just listen and try to take what they can from watching him battle it out with some of the influential members.

I would fall into the 3rd camp... I enjoy the varied opinion and perspectives. For sure, your well-written argument that a harsh regulation by the FDA trumps local regulation is a huge concern.

That being said, I do find some of TomBaker's arguments around how much power the FDA really has to outright ban vaping to be somewhat compelling. Yes, perhaps too much unicorns and rainbows, but he does present an interesting perspective that is backed with some level of fact.

With regards to an all-out ban of e-cigarettes by the FDA, here's how I (a layman) sees it: there is enough anti-smoking/ANTZ momentum in this country today that if the FDA could ban all tobacco products, I believe that they WOULD do that and be praised for it by most people. Look at the response when CVS decided to stop selling tobacco... Obama himself praised the action.

We still have 'that substance' on FDA's Schedule 1 (which indicates no medical use and high rate of abuse) that really DOES have known medical benefits and has been legalized by many states for that purpose (and two states for whatever the heck you want it for). If you think about it, tobacco and/or nicotine would actually be a better fit for Schedule 1 classification because there is known medical use that I'm aware of, and it is highly abused. Putting it there would hold a ton of power for an outright ban. Why isn't it? Because they can't do that under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act... it specifically says that tobacco is a legal product for adult use (Overview of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act: Consumer fact Sheet).

In the end, I can see the FDA applying GxP requirements to e-liquid manufacture. I can also see them attacking flavors, since flavored cigarettes have been banned for some time now. Perhaps other things too... all of which would be bad... but I can't see them just banning it outright.

All of this above from somebody who is not a lawyer and not nearly as involved in the politics behind this as, for instance, Mr. Godshall (whom I respect immensely). Just my half-a-nickel....

 

[Sundodger]

While TB did have some valid points and a fresh view, it was and is unneeded to attack others and their arguments. Also taking a quote and changing it in a post is not legit. We are all here to be heard, not to be in the herd.