It is IMPORTANT to Vape in PUBLIC
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NOBODY, including me, is advocating a "vape anywhere" policy. That's a strawman argument.
What I am advocating is that we vape wherever it is not prohibited by law or the policies of a responsible party.
Back in the days when people smoked anywhere, the fact that they smoked anywhere wasn't what caused smoking bans. What caused smoking bans were the health and safety implications of cigarettes, and the offensive nature of cigarette smoke to a large number of non-smokers.
None of those factors exist with vaping. If you could go back to 1949 and replace everyone's cigarette with a PV, there would be no smoking areas, no smoking bans and people would still be vaping everywhere they wanted.
Today, the anti-nicotine zealots, and some vapers, are trying to transpose the factors that led to smoking bans upon PV's and vapor. They are not equivalent. There are no health, safety or any other factors that would reasonably justify vaping bans.
The only way vaping bans can be instituted is if the antis control the narrative and continue to reinforce the public perception that equates analogs with PVs and smoke with vapor. The behavior of some vapers plays right into this narrative. That, and that alone, is what will result in more vaping bans.
Your arguments are based on logic, which is pointless. We're not in the realm of fact, we're in the realm of politics. Whether you like it or not, the bans are already happening. They don't CARE that it's not smoking. So be polite (even in forums), respectful and informative and we might be able to nip it in the bud. Be aggressive and self-righteous and you're digging yourself into a hole. This point has been beaten to death. I have nothing else to say.
Here is an Interesting Thread...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarettes-public/280984-where-have-i-dared.html
Well, I'm sorry about your allergies and I sympathise with you. But the point is that there is nothing in exhaled vapor that is strong or concentrated or lasting enough to trigger an allergy in anyone unless they are so debilitated by allergies that they couldn't tolerate being outside their hermetically sealed rooms. These people would be so sensitive to the atmosphere, they would not only be unable to eat in a restaurant, they couldn't set foot in one, or any other public space, without endangering their lives.
There are many posts right here of people who live with someone, or a whole family, who is severely affected by allergies. In every case, their vapor has had no effect on their allergic families.
If you look at the chemical analysis of exhaled vapor, you will see that the amounts of anything besides water are so low that they are nearly undetectable by sophisticated laboratory equipment. And no known allergens are even present at all.
Here is what is in your vapor.
Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled
Here is a more detailed report on a specific juice:
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/Portland2008ECIG.pdf
I saw that. In each case, there was no objection and there was no rational reason to prohibit vaping. Note that none of them were smoking areas.
Vape where it's not prohibited by law or by someone in a responsible position to prohibit it. Don't assume that it's prohibited until you receive explicit permission. If you think it may cause a confrontation with anti-nicotine militants, try to get permission first.
Again, smoking bans began with a foundation in reality. If everyone vaped instead of smoked in 1949, there would be no vaping bans today. People were not offended by the fact people smoked everywhere, they were offended by the smoke itself.
And why are the bans happening? Not because of vaping militants. Not because of confrontational vapers. Not because of vapers asserting a right to vape. Not because vaping is offensive to normal people.
Vaping bans are happening because the antis have been able to seized an control the narrative. They have encountered no opposition to their propaganda. They won't be mollified or satisfied if every vaper restricted his vaping to his bedroom closet. There will still be vaping bans.
They don't CARE that it's not smoking because they are zealots. But, they rely on the acquiescence of the general public who, for the most part, are uninformed. With an informed public, they would not be able to muster the support they need for these bans.
That's the point. You can hide all you want. You can act just like a smoker. You can be as polite as you want. None of that will help prevent bans.
There's a vast difference between being aggressive and being assertive. No group in the history of the world has ever gained or maintained rights without asserting them. If you can think of one case to the contrary, please enlighten me.
Americans have lost entire classes of constitutional rights and legal privileges because, in the face of well orchestrated propaganda campaigns, they were afraid of appearing "self-righteous" or "aggressive".
If you doubt that, I recommend you watch the HBO documentary "Hot Coffee", to see how we have voluntarily given up our constitutional right to civil court access without a whimper and because of a well funded and orchestrated PR campaign of lies and distortions by the U.S. Chamber of commerce and their political allies.
The same game plan is in effect right now with bans and restrictions of vaping, and if no one stands up to assert their rights, they will be lost.
There were zero of the 20+. The "few only" refers to the TSNAs that were a by-product of tobacco derived nicotine, the NNN and NNK in the lower section of the table.
That analysis was on the INHALED vapor. The exhaled vapor would contain far less of any of those components, as most are absorbed by the vaper.
You have to keep in mind what a trace amount is. Vegetables contain trace amounts of nicotine. Just about everything you eat, drink or rub on your skin contains "trace" amounts of something harmful, including carcinogens. Your tap water contains trace amounts of heavy metals and arsenic. Trace simply means it wasn't so low as to be undetectable.
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Sure it's o.k. to disagree on something.
I simply don't buy the common misconception that opinions based on myths or bias or misinformation or emotion are just as valid as opinions based on facts. Despite what Fox news tries to claim, you can't balance truth with untruth and there is no "fairness" in any disagreement. Someone is wrong and someone is right. It's never "fair", and to pretend otherwise is the ultimate in political correctness.
Like someone once said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. No one is entitled to their own facts."
I simply don't buy the common misconception that opinions based on myths or bias or misinformation or emotion are just as valid as opinions based on facts. Despite what Fox news tries to claim, you can't balance truth with untruth and there is no "fairness" in any disagreement. Someone is wrong and someone is right. It's never "fair", and to pretend otherwise is the ultimate in political correctness.
Like someone once said, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. No one is entitled to their own facts."
Yes, I mean someone who has a legitimate right to. Not just a random uninformed person.
Good. I hoped so. It's disturbing to see how many of us do mean just any random uninformed person.
For example, I travel a lot and I always vape in airports while I am waiting for my plane. Only once did someone come up to me, an employee of a kiosk, and tell me "You can't smoke in here". I said, "I'm not smoking, it's a vaporizer." And went right on vaping and minding my own business. That ended it.
I have never been told I could not vape in any establishment. Although I don't do it in airplanes (even before it was prohibited by my airline), simply because I can see how "smoke" might alarm people for security reasons.
Having read all the comments, I am still convinced I am doing a GOOD thing by vaping in public. I have turned at least a half dozen of my friends and relatives from smoking to vaping. I have had many strangers ask me where they could get one and if it really works. If "getting out there" helps even a few people realize they really can quit smoking, it will be worth it. And the more people that DO quit, the stronger is our case that vaporizers are actually a substantial leap forward in harm reduction that should be embraced, not prohibited.
+1...Tina.
Good call also in telling the kiosk employee that it was a "vaporizer" instead of an e-cigarette.
You ARE doing a good thing by vaping in public. There is a coordinated, massively funded and orchestrated crusade to tax, regulate and restrict vaping and other forms of smokeless tobacco, and to denormalize and stigmatize vapers in order to eliminate any and all forms of tobacco use. That is the stated aim of the zealots and they make no distinctions. To them, nicotine is nicotine and tobacco is tobacco.
They had great success with cigarettes because they had some legitimate points that they were able to inflate and exaggerate to the public and the public ate it up because they had a certain amount of first-hand experience.
The only way we are going to win this war, (and, make no mistake, that's how they view it) is to deprive them of widespread public support. Since we don't have billions of dollars of government funding for propaganda campaigns, we have to neutralize their propaganda and gain that support one person at a time. The only way to accomplish that is by showing people first hand what vaping really is. We have to normalize vaping before the smoking-nazis can sear their disinformation into the brains of the public. The public mind is largely an empty vessel at this point. Either we fill it or the tobacco nazis will. So far, they have a head start, largely due to the infrastructure they built in their effort to eradicate cigarettes.
Anti-tobacco and nicotine zealots are a threat to our health, our finances and our social acceptability. To me, that makes them the enemy, if not outright domestic terrorists. IMO, people who refuse to vape in public, who sneak around like a smoker and apologize for their vaping, are aiding and abetting the enemies in the anti-tobacco nazi cult. We don't need appeasers. We don't need those who cower in the smoking areas, fearful of being called militants or "rude" or "aggressive". We need vapers with the backbone to stand up before we get stomped to death under the jackboots of the tobacco nazis.
Good call also in telling the kiosk employee that it was a "vaporizer" instead of an e-cigarette.
You ARE doing a good thing by vaping in public. There is a coordinated, massively funded and orchestrated crusade to tax, regulate and restrict vaping and other forms of smokeless tobacco, and to denormalize and stigmatize vapers in order to eliminate any and all forms of tobacco use. That is the stated aim of the zealots and they make no distinctions. To them, nicotine is nicotine and tobacco is tobacco.
They had great success with cigarettes because they had some legitimate points that they were able to inflate and exaggerate to the public and the public ate it up because they had a certain amount of first-hand experience.
The only way we are going to win this war, (and, make no mistake, that's how they view it) is to deprive them of widespread public support. Since we don't have billions of dollars of government funding for propaganda campaigns, we have to neutralize their propaganda and gain that support one person at a time. The only way to accomplish that is by showing people first hand what vaping really is. We have to normalize vaping before the smoking-nazis can sear their disinformation into the brains of the public. The public mind is largely an empty vessel at this point. Either we fill it or the tobacco nazis will. So far, they have a head start, largely due to the infrastructure they built in their effort to eradicate cigarettes.
Anti-tobacco and nicotine zealots are a threat to our health, our finances and our social acceptability. To me, that makes them the enemy, if not outright domestic terrorists. IMO, people who refuse to vape in public, who sneak around like a smoker and apologize for their vaping, are aiding and abetting the enemies in the anti-tobacco nazi cult. We don't need appeasers. We don't need those who cower in the smoking areas, fearful of being called militants or "rude" or "aggressive". We need vapers with the backbone to stand up before we get stomped to death under the jackboots of the tobacco nazis.
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I for one would never go to the smoking area to vape...I quit smoking to get away from all that! Why should I go into a smoking area? I AM NOT A SMOKER!
I was surprised, actually, to learn on this forum that some people believe they should go out to the smoking area to vape....I don't get it. We QUIT smoking...why should we go to the smoking area if WE ARE NOT SMOKING?
I was surprised, actually, to learn on this forum that some people believe they should go out to the smoking area to vape....I don't get it. We QUIT smoking...why should we go to the smoking area if WE ARE NOT SMOKING?
See, you have made the mental adjustment that seems to elude so many vapers. They are suffering from the same internal brainwashing as the fat ugly kid who grows up to be beautiful, but still sees an ugly fat kid in the mirror. In reality, they are non-smokers, but their mind has not adjusted to it yet. Some may never make the adjustment. It's sad, really.
Uhm, no, just no.
Look, i live in Germany. We recently got a ban on smoking in public areas like bars, restaurants, but not in the open air. Smoking had been already prohibited in public buildings like youth clubs, churches and the likes even before that.
Bars, clubs and restaurants can(!) allow smoking, IF they have a separate smoker's compartment that is away from the nonsmokers' area and as long as the nonsmokers' area stays separate from the smokers' compartment.
A store(!), on the other hand, is not "open public", neither is a bar, pub, restaurant. At least not legallese-wise if it comes to trouble. If you misbehave in a store, bar, pub, what-other-locale-of-your-choice-you-ever-choose in any way the owner deems inapropriate, the OWNER and/or his/her seconds can either kick you out themselves, or they could call the German police to have(!) you kicked out of the locale.
But going back to the matter of vaping. I vape in public, on public places, on the street, in a park, whereever i like.
BUT:
It's a matter of respect towards the place's owner to ask for permission in an enclosed location beforehand, not a matter of "I have to explain my vaping". That's nonsense on your behalf.
Why i do ask for permission, though? Because even if i can reason with most people here in Germany, vaping without permission in a place where it'd be frowned upon or outright illegal to smoke seems to people uneducated about vaping like a perceived violation of smoker's ban. They see a cloud of white stuff and perceive it to be smoke.
Vaping is NEW to the folks here in Germany, hence why most think that i'm still SMOKING, but actually i'm vaping. Add that to the fact of trying to fight more and more rampant lobbyist bull.... anti-vaping propaganda blown from German mass media to disinform the masses and you might understand why RAMBOing our vaping into other people's faces is not the best idea, even if we Germans are rather (negatively) known for our bluntness and direct actions.
Am i clear now?
Oh, and leave the ...... out of the discussion, ok?
BECAUSE YOU'RE USING IT OUT OF CONTEXT.
BECAUSE YOU'RE USING IT OUT OF CONTEXT.
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