"It only takes ONE bad chemical"

[Moonbogg]

Here is an article which brings the dangers of diketones to our attention. Its not a study, so the link doesn't need to be broken. Some of you may not like it though, so you might break the link for that reason alone.
They rightly mention that although cigarettes have over 7000 chemicals, and e-cigarettes have far fewer, it still only takes ONE bad chemical to destroy your lungs and ruin your life. That chemical just might be a diketone.

http:// www. mitchellrepublic. com/news/nation/3829711-nicotine-isnt-only-hazard-be-found-e-cigarettes
Nicotine isn't the only hazard to be found in e-cigarettes | The Daily Republic

 

[Lessifer]

Here is an article which brings the dangers of diketones to our attention. Its not a study, so the link doesn't need to be broken. Some of you may not like it though, so you might break the link for that reason alone.
They rightly mention that although cigarettes have over 7000 chemicals, and e-cigarettes have far fewer, it still only takes ONE bad chemical to destroy your lungs and ruin your life. That chemical just might be a diketone.

Nicotine isn't the only hazard to be found in e-cigarettes - Hartford Courant

It appears to be behind a paywall. Like pretty much anything else on the subject I assume it's full of speculation, and very little, if any, evidence of actual harm.

Knee jerk overreactions don't help anyone. Actual scientific study is the only way we will gain knowledge. Digging our heads in the sand in order to protect us from the bogeyman only keeps us ignorant.

 

[Moonbogg]

Fixed

 

[Lessifer]

Seriously? Your title quote comes from Prue Talbot?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Out of this entire article only one thing was factual:

Farsalinos, who has accepted some funding from the vaping industry, said he believes that e-cigarettes are safer than tobacco cigarettes. Acetyl propionyl and diacetyl are also naturally present in cigarette smoke, Farsalinos said, at levels higher than those he found in e-cigs.

And a tiny positive:

Conley, of the American vaping Association, says e-cigarettes flavored with watermelon helped him stop smoking five years ago, and he will fight to keep flavorings on the market.

"There's a reason why the gum, patch and lozenge have such pitiful success rates," he said, referring to some common approaches to smoking cessation. "We have to avoid medicinalizing these products [e-cigarettes] and making them bland and boring," he said.

Even if e-cigarette users are exposed to diacetyl, he asserted, the risk of harm is only a fraction of that from smoking tobacco, which causes 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, according to federal data.

The rest was the usual crap.

 

[retired1]

PLEASE READ! Breaking Links to Junk Science and Other Rubbish Posts | E-Cigarette Forum

If you want to bring a URL to the table that is to a site spouting rubbish and lies, please break the link

This includes everything, not just studies.

 

[Kent C]

Out of this entire article only one thing was factual:

The article is pure Prue Talbot. In fact the inclusion of the 'positives' may be a result of the fact that she stalks our forums looking for people who complain about "health problems" - that mostly are people going through cigarette withdrawal - the cilia in the lungs doing their 'self-healing', ' morning mucus' that goes away in a few weeks (ymmv), sore neck muscles from trying to get more vapor from cigalikes (not so much a problem now), plus all the diacetyl threads, etc. ... and then Talbot reports them out of the context in which they were written - basically new vapers going through tobacco combustion withdrawal.

And then, they use ANY comment by our guys - Dr. F, Conley, that tends to back up their case. It's the "even Hillary said that Obama wasn't a Muslin - "as far as I know"" or (to be fair) that 'even Colin Powell questioned Bush's WMD stance"... type argument where citing people who are actually part of a movement, disagree or question certain aspects of their own movement. It's effective - we use it -
Many (without getting the full context) quoted FDA's Zeller at the HELP hearing: “If we could get all of those people (smokers) to completely switch all of their cigarettes to noncombustible cigarettes, it would be good for public health.”

We all get a kick out of it, but it means nothing since he's still trying to shut down the industry and our choice to vape. This again, is one of those articles, that I recently mentioned, that will 'throw you a bone' on a few positives but the main point is negative - esp. when the main point was one made by Prue Talbot - someone who would shut down vaping entirely and has said as much. Although I haven't bothered to check, I wouldn't doubt that the writer is a pal of hers.

The article "quotes" (without quoting) Conley: "Even if e-cigarette users are exposed to diacetyl, he asserted, the risk of harm is only a fraction of that from smoking tobacco, which causes 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, according to federal data."....

BUT doesn't show the studies (some from Dr. F, some from others) that show that "the fraction" is near undetectable in some flavors and non-existent in others AND that the vaping industry is reacting in a positive way - it's 'self-governing'. The writer could have posted the flavourart site (or Decadent Vapours site)- whose flavors are used by many vendors and DIYers who have eliminated diacetyl and Acetyl propionyl from most of their flavors, and have a 'sheet' from a lab on every flavor they offer.(thanks PBusardo) Here's their page for that and their lab test on "Custard Cream" - a flavor that one would think would have loads of the bad stuff in it - it doesn't:

Home
http://flavourartnaflavourreports.com/assets/0715-502-58.pdf

Diacetyl (ug/mL) .....2,3-Pentanedione (ug/mL)
Not Detected .............Not Detected

If one is attempting to be 'fair and balanced' as the OP seems to think, one would think the writer would do a bit more 'journalism' to show the whole story - inspect and report stuff to 'find that fraction' rather than quote a line in a paragraph juxtaposed by the lie of "480,000 deaths" in attempt to link ecigs with cigarettes, where the quote by Conley said just the opposite.

 

[ykalon]

Just walking down the street fills everyones lungs with hundreds of potentially dangerous chemicals... I don't vape/live in a sterilized plastic bubble. Where's the logic and common sense nowadays?

EDIT/ I DIY and avoid diketones. But vaping in itself in its current state is probably not completely safe anyway. Nothing in life is.Only thing I know it's waaaaay down on the list that can be potentially harmful to my life and wellbeing....

 

[AndriaD]

I think all we have *right now* about diketones in ejuice is a concern that should definitely be looked into. Although I am quite paranoid about what substances I inhale into my lungs, that's because I have asthma, and I think anyone with asthma or COPD does have to be a bit paranoid, since our lungs already don't work right, and breathing is *required* for life. But I don't think that it needs to be something for every human nor even every vaper to be hysterical about; in this instance, "we just don't know" is actually valid, because we really don't -- we don't know if the type of repetitive workplace exposure defined by OSHA is actually applicable to vaping, or to the levels of the stuff we might be exposed to, in vaping.

I personally choose to abstain from diketones in my ejuices as far as humanly possible, which is just one reason I started DIYing my own ejuice -- but that decision is based entirely on the facts that a) I have asthma; b) I am *very often* short of breath because of it; and c), "short of breath" is about the only symptom that may appear, if diketones have begun destroying one's lungs -- I would have no way of knowing if I was suffering a normal asthma attack, or something far worse.

Those who are NOT routinely short of breath may feel quite differently about the matter, and no one really knows if they're wrong.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Last edited by a moderator: Today at 1:03 PM
Reason for edit: Yes, the link DOES need to be broken

Thanks moderators. This tells me all I really needed to know about this thread.

 

[CarolT]

I think all we have *right now* about diketones in ejuice is a concern that should definitely be looked into. Although I am quite paranoid about what substances I inhale into my lungs, that's because I have asthma, and I think anyone with asthma or COPD does have to be a bit paranoid, since our lungs already don't work right, and breathing is *required* for life. But I don't think that it needs to be something for every human nor even every vaper to be hysterical about; in this instance, "we just don't know" is actually valid, because we really don't -- we don't know if the type of repetitive workplace exposure defined by OSHA is actually applicable to vaping, or to the levels of the stuff we might be exposed to, in vaping.

I personally choose to abstain from diketones in my ejuices as far as humanly possible, which is just one reason I started DIYing my own ejuice -- but that decision is based entirely on the facts that a) I have asthma; b) I am *very often* short of breath because of it; and c), "short of breath" is about the only symptom that may appear, if diketones have begun destroying one's lungs -- I would have no way of knowing if I was suffering a normal asthma attack, or something far worse.

Those who are NOT routinely short of breath may feel quite differently about the matter, and no one really knows if they're wrong.

Andria

A major difference between asthma and bronchiolitis obliterans is that BO is not reversible, while asthma is. Also, the damage in BO takes some time to develop, it's not a one-time event. This is the best review of the subject that I've found. It's downloadable from the publisher site.
Diacetyl exposure as a pneumotoxic factor: a review. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[AndriaD]

A major difference between asthma and bronchiolitis obliterans is that BO is not reversible, while asthma is. Also, the damage in BO takes some time to develop, it's not a one-time event.

Yep... it's the irreversible part that scares the hell out of me. But the simple fact that the only reported symptom is "shortness of breath" is why I won't take the chance, since I would have no way to know if it was a very normal asthma attack, or the beginning of my imminent death -- heck, apparently even doctors have a hard time diagnosing B. O., since it's often misdiagnosed as COPD. It might be a slim risk, but it's a risk I'd far rather avoid.

Judging from my extreme repulsion to the *smell* of microwave popcorn, I probably wouldn't like the taste of them in my ejuice anyway.

Andria

 

[Lessifer]

A major difference between asthma and bronchiolitis obliterans is that BO is not reversible, while asthma is. Also, the damage in BO takes some time to develop, it's not a one-time event.

I would think that you of all people would recognize the danger in prematurely attributing a devastating disease to a single cause without thorough investigation.

heck, apparently even doctors have a hard time diagnosing B. O., since it's often misdiagnosed as COPD.

Careful now, I believe there is a theory that the numbers of B.O. may be higher because some cases could be misdiagnosed. I don't think there are any actual numbers for this though, or even any substantiated cases of this occurring.

 

[AndriaD]

I would think that you of all people would recognize the danger in prematurely attributing a devastating disease to a single cause without thorough investigation.

That was my thought too.

Careful now, I believe there is a theory that the numbers of B.O. may be higher because some cases could be misdiagnosed. I don't think there are any actual numbers for this though, or even any substantiated cases of this occurring.

Yep... because when docs hear hoofbeats, they think horses, not zebras. COPD is very common -- B. O. vanishingly rare. My problem is that I'm a hypochondriac -- if I was vaping diketones and had an asthma attack... I'd be SURE that I was about to expire of B. O. So it's just better in every possible way if I just don't go there.

Andria

 

[stevegmu]

I must have read a different article than others. I thought it was fair...

 

[Lessifer]

I must have read a different article than others. I thought it was fair...

That doesn't surprise me in the least.
It's not as horrible as it could have been, and in some ways that makes it worse. It makes the appearance of being reasonable and fair, while insinuating that it is known that there are components of e-liquids that ARE harmful, which is false.

 

[stevegmu]

That doesn't surprise me in the least.
It's not as horrible as it could have been, and in some ways that makes it worse. It makes the appearance of being reasonable and fair, while insinuating that it is known that there are components of e-liquids that ARE harmful, which is false.

I go by what is actually written...

 

[Racehorse]

Out of this entire article only one thing was factual:

Farsalinos, who has accepted some funding from the vaping industry, said he believes that e-cigarettes are safer than tobacco cigarettes.

That they are safer than cigarettes is about the only thing we've been able to honestly say and I think that kinda covers it.

Vaping is harm reduction, not harm free.

Keep in mind that, "safer than cigarettes" sets the bar pretty low. I think that is a rather significant point, at least, it is for me. As there really aren't THAT many things you can do to your body that are as bad as what cigarettes do.

Safer than cigarettes doesn't mean safe. What is speculation is how much safer does something have to be in order NOT to cause a disease process?

Is "safer than cigarettes" any kind of guarantee that a disease process will not be set in motion by engaging in that behavior? NO.

Safer than cigarettes and harm reduction. That is where we're at, and have always been at.

Either of those things can be increased or decreased though, depending on the flavorings used, the manner in which people vape, materials of delivery devices, etc. We just don't know yet! Everyone should just go with their instinct. I do. (less is more for me across the board.)

I am of the opinion that, as Dr. F and others have noted, eliquid probably shouldn't have ingredients that may represent an increased inhalation risks......that would seem to increase the possible harm.

Again, use your own instinct as guide, absent real studies in large populations and long term.

 

[nicnik]

A major difference between asthma and bronchiolitis obliterans is that BO is not reversible, while asthma is. Also, the damage in BO takes some time to develop, it's not a one-time event. This is the best review of the subject that I've found. It's downloadable from the publisher site.
Diacetyl exposure as a pneumotoxic factor: a review. - PubMed - NCBI

I didn't read the whole thing, but the following stood out to me. It always seems to be said that BO is irreversible, but this suggests that in the early stages, it can heal, at least in part:

Those who had worked from 5 months to 9 years experienced coughing, dyspnoea and wheezing. TEV1 values were 14.0 – 66.8% of expected
whilst HRCT showed significant bronchial thickening.
Once the exposures had stopped then all persons recove-
red normal lung function within 2 years

 

[nicnik]

Judging from my extreme repulsion to the *smell* of microwave popcorn, I probably wouldn't like the taste of them in my ejuice anyway.

I don't like the smell of it in microwave popcorn, but the little bit of vape juices I've tried that I suspect had a fairly high level of diketones, tasted great to me, and it seems like it was the diketones that made them taste so good. Yum! But I stay away from diketones, and vape flavorless, with occassional slight bit of flavor.