It's not just tax revenues from sales of tobacco products

[Heybilox]

We hear a lot of the government's concerns about the dwindling assets obtained from sales tax of tobacco
products, but the Canadian government depends on the success of Big tobacco for other reasons.
I found this article which was published a year ago and it just confirms my governments, greed, corruption
and hypocrisy at a whole new level.

Canadian government investment in tobacco companies.

I'm sure the Canadian government is not alone!

 

[sofarsogood]

Pensions are an interesting point I didn't consider, government workers protecting their pensions by protecting tobacco companies but the primary benefit is still the excise taxes collected and that too is a conflict of interest for governments and the NGO's that are tax supported. I believe the money governments take in from the tobacco business, in total, is critical to their financial well being. This addiction is one they cannot admit. Denial is typical with drug dependance.

 

[AndriaD]

Pensions are an interesting point I didn't consider, government workers protecting their pensions by protecting tobacco companies but the primary benefit is still the excise taxes collected and that too is a conflict of interest for governments and the NGO's that are tax supported. I believe the money governments take in from the tobacco business, in total, is critical to their financial well being. This addiction is one they cannot admit. Denial is typical with drug dependance.

As you said, it's a conflict of interest, in definite legal terms -- out one side of their mouth they're spewing all this about "public health," and out the other side, very quietly, urging everyone to continue supporting the #1 threat to public health, just because of the money. (and they think we're all too stupid to realize this conflict of interest, which I find terrifically insulting).

Love of money truly is the root of all evil, and it's very definitely the root of this one.

Andria

 

[EBates]

Say it ain't so, Joe!!!

 

[WattWick]

The conflict of interest grows to monstrous proportions when you add MSA payments to the mix. Not to mention some states have spent/loaned against/"securitized" their future payments already

Some try to make up for lacking MSA payments by adding more and more taxes to cigs. When people then switch something different entirely (e.g. vaping), the bottom falls out. No more MSA. No more taxes. The bill/loans/bonds still has to be paid.

If vaping is deemed "a cigarette" (tobacco product) and handed over to BT on a silver platter, vaping may fall under the MSA at some point. I'm guessing that's part of the play. "Taxes and MSA must go on" as the money is already spent.

Give it a few years and you'll see Uncle Sam posters telling the children to smoke - for the economy.

 

[AndriaD]

The conflict of interest grows to monstrous proportions when you add MSA payments to the mix. Not to mention some states have spent/loaned against/"securitized" their future payments already

Some try to make up for lacking MSA payments by adding more and more taxes to cigs. When people then switch something different entirely (e.g. vaping), the bottom falls out. No more MSA. No more taxes. The bill/loans/bonds still has to be paid.

If vaping is deemed "a cigarette" (tobacco product) and handed over to BT on a silver platter, vaping may fall under the MSA at some point. I'm guessing that's part of the play. "Taxes and MSA must go on" as the money is already spent.

Give it a few years and you'll see Uncle Sam posters telling the children to smoke - for the economy.

All of this is why we absolutely must resist, fight tooth and claw and nail, shine the light of truth on the evil operating under the guise of our government, and get those greedy evil so-and-so's away from the public trough they're swilling from. They need to be in jail (if they want to exist on public funds so much!).

Andria

 

[bacc.vap]

I hadn't thought of that before. I'd like to see a list of all government and health entities that invest in tobacco. How pathetic.

 

[MyMagicMist]

Love of money truly is the root of all evil, and it's very definitely the root of this one.

Andria

This is a major reason I keep suggesting we abolish even the idea of money. The idea of money is truly not needed. Bartering can and does work. It can be done individually, by communities, by nations. Add in basic contracts and enforcement of contracts and you have no need of a standard akin to money. American money is anything but money anymore, at any given. I think a grab at sparing tobacco revenue is a last ditch attempt at backing American money.

We see OPEC drowning us with cheap crude oil and not letting up any time soon. The bottom goes out of the petroleum based U.S. dollar real quick when OPEC unloads excess oil. We've backed the dollar with oil too long. Now, we see the Emperor's clothes in earnest. The STATE needs to keep the illusion of having the illusion control, ergo, it grabs at the idea of backing the dollar with tobacco. And we see that doesn't work either because of us evil, nasty, terrorist vapers.

Can our STATE not see we want less of them and their bumbling crap? They could maybe, offer value? We have plenty of roads needing repaired. Instead of the old way, why don't we try replacing portions of U.S. roadways with solar panel pavement slabs? I read if we got only half the U.S. roads covered with this we could supply the entire world with excess electricity each and every year. Why not also fix inner city and rural public schools? How about setting up free 'feel good' emergency clinics for inner cities and rural areas? Didn't we allegedly get a slew of health care benefits doled out?

Nah, STATE offering real value to the people? Won't happen. Too simple.

Adding: As I think of it, this too is further proof the STATE does not care about the health and well being of its people. Healthcare costs could be lowered greatly if doctors did not become big pharmaceutical wage slaves. Doctors need to do that in order to repay outrageous education debts. Hey, why not let doctors volunteer rotations say for X number of years at community 'feel goods' to repay debts? Doctor Brown could work at a rural clinic three days a week for four years to repay getting educated as an ear, nose, and throat doctor. In fact since the schooling likely requires four years, why not let him work it off while in school?

But again, too darn simple. Too much also that ought not be said, perhaps.

 

[MyMagicMist]

I hadn't thought of that before. I'd like to see a list of all government and health entities that invest in tobacco. How pathetic.

Would you count Department of Agriculture, as being health related? I would because agriculture consists of growing foods and Hippocrates, who doctors swear an oath by, says food ought to be our medicine.

See what happens when people begin tugging on a little string? In this case the little string is money. It can and does obviously vote, and obvious too, its vote carries a lot more weight than people's. We tug on it by finding a safer alternative to tobacco use.

STATE/Capital tells us we're full of beans regarding the safety and it's got to be regulated. We come together and form volunteer groups doing that, as well as doing independent research. We see that we and State were both wrong, vaping is a lot more safer than tobacco.

State/Capital still fuss and fight. They try to minimize that vaping took maybe less than ~3% of tobacco's market last year, if even that much. That is more important than maybe we think here. 3% can be a deciding stock ballot, 3% can swing the tide either way.

It also lets us step back and see the beast for what it is, greed & love of money. And that isn't limited to vaping, to defense, to education, to medicine, media ... it runs concurrent through all of it, all aspects. Knowing this, we can keep on tugging.

Remember a lot of us did not ask to play their game. We have to accept what is, because it is what is. Fine, we may accept it, doesn't mean we need to like it or agree. Silence is not compliance regardless what any say.

Sometimes, silence is being too angered to be capable of forming the argument in an appropriate manner what does not seem insane ranting. Sometimes, "a cigar is just a cigar", too.

 

[schatz]

Would you count Department of Agriculture, as being health related? I would because agriculture consists of growing foods and Hippocrates, who doctors swear an oath by, says food ought to be our medicine.

See what happens when people begin tugging on a little string? In this case the little string is money. It can and does obviously vote, and obvious too, its vote carries a lot more weight than people's. We tug on it by finding a safer alternative to tobacco use.

STATE/Capital tells us we're full of beans regarding the safety and it's got to be regulated. We come together and form volunteer groups doing that, as well as doing independent research. We see that we and State were both wrong, vaping is a lot more safer than tobacco.

State/Capital still fuss and fight. They try to minimize that vaping took maybe less than ~3% of tobacco's market last year, if even that much. That is more important than maybe we think here. 3% can be a deciding stock ballot, 3% can swing the tide either way.

It also lets us step back and see the beast for what it is, greed & love of money. And that isn't limited to vaping, to defense, to education, to medicine, media ... it runs concurrent through all of it, all aspects. Knowing this, we can keep on tugging.

Remember a lot of us did not ask to play their game. We have to accept what is, because it is what is. Fine, we may accept it, doesn't mean we need to like it or agree. Silence is not compliance regardless what any say.

Sometimes, silence is being too angered to be capable of forming the argument in an appropriate manner what does not seem insane ranting. Sometimes, "a cigar is just a cigar", too.

And then again some of us can only type 10 wpm, and are limited to short rants because we lose train of thought after first sentence. But I completely agree with you onthis.

 

[MyMagicMist]

And then again some of us can only type 10 wpm, and are limited to short rants because we lose train of thought after first sentence. But I completely agree with you onthis.

Don't feel about losing train of thought. Wife tells me I'm a good squirrel hound. "Oh look, squirrel!" I go off in six directions at once at times. "No plan is the best plan, that way it don't get changed or ratted out."

It has taken quite a while to play catch up and see things as they really are. Will give credit to vaping, it has helped in focusing the scope a good bit. It also helps in serving as a bit of a spring board in a way. There is much vaping can broach, much it cannot too.

Used to do around 30wpm, when actually writing to get over 2-5,000 words done a day. Not sure where I am now. No, I do not touch type either, I'm someone that uses one finger, "hunting and pecking". My hands won't allow for 'typing'.

 

[schatz]

Don't feel about losing train of thought. Wife tells me I'm a good squirrel hound. "Oh look, squirrel!" I go off in six directions at once at times. "No plan is the best plan, that way it don't get changed or ratted out."

It has taken quite a while to play catch up and see things as they really are. Will give credit to vaping, it has helped in focusing the scope a good bit. It also helps in serving as a bit of a spring board in a way. There is much vaping can broach, much it cannot too.

Used to do around 30wpm, when actually writing to get over 2-5,000 words done a day. Not sure where I am now. No, I do not touch type either, I'm someone that uses one finger, "hunting and pecking". My hands won't allow for 'typing'.

I hear ya, I grew up in the era when the girls took typeing class, and we took auto shop, welding or some technical oriented class.

 

[AndriaD]

This is a major reason I keep suggesting we abolish even the idea of money. The idea of money is truly not needed. Bartering can and does work. It can be done individually, by communities, by nations. Add in basic contracts and enforcement of contracts and you have no need of a standard akin to money. American money is anything but money anymore, at any given. I think a grab at sparing tobacco revenue is a last ditch attempt at backing American money.

We see OPEC drowning us with cheap crude oil and not letting up any time soon. The bottom goes out of the petroleum based U.S. dollar real quick when OPEC unloads excess oil. We've backed the dollar with oil too long. Now, we see the Emperor's clothes in earnest. The STATE needs to keep the illusion of having the illusion control, ergo, it grabs at the idea of backing the dollar with tobacco. And we see that doesn't work either because of us evil, nasty, terrorist vapers.

Can our STATE not see we want less of them and their bumbling crap? They could maybe, offer value? We have plenty of roads needing repaired. Instead of the old way, why don't we try replacing portions of U.S. roadways with solar panel pavement slabs? I read if we got only half the U.S. roads covered with this we could supply the entire world with excess electricity each and every year. Why not also fix inner city and rural public schools? How about setting up free 'feel good' emergency clinics for inner cities and rural areas? Didn't we allegedly get a slew of health care benefits doled out?

Nah, STATE offering real value to the people? Won't happen. Too simple.

Adding: As I think of it, this too is further proof the STATE does not care about the health and well being of its people. Healthcare costs could be lowered greatly if doctors did not become big pharmaceutical wage slaves. Doctors need to do that in order to repay outrageous education debts. Hey, why not let doctors volunteer rotations say for X number of years at community 'feel goods' to repay debts? Doctor Brown could work at a rural clinic three days a week for four years to repay getting educated as an ear, nose, and throat doctor. In fact since the schooling likely requires four years, why not let him work it off while in school?

But again, too darn simple. Too much also that ought not be said, perhaps.

I think this may be the FIRST TIME EVER I've seen anyone complain about "cheap petroleum".... Are you ok, MMM? Do you have a fever??? Somebody check him, quick!!!

Money is merely a method of encapsulating energy into an easily tradable form -- my husband gives up 45-50 hrs a week of his energy, to receive something which he can trade for a certain quantity of the energy of farmers and utility workers and yes, petroleum, and other peoples' energy too, like the assembly-line workers of China who make vape gear. It could be *batteries* -- another encapsulated form of energy -- but there has to be some easily-tradable means.

Andria

 

[WattWick]

An article to give a bit more depth to what I tried to say in my previous post... which got a bit rambly and weird. I blame tapatalk and beer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/07/opinion/how-the-big-tobacco-deal-went-bad.html

Imagine borrowing $200,000 to buy a house today and your children having to pay back $234 million in 40 or 50 years. That’s the scale of this problem.

 

[MyMagicMist]

I think this may be the FIRST TIME EVER I've seen anyone complain about "cheap petroleum".... Are you ok, MMM? Do you have a fever??? Somebody check him, quick!!!

Money is merely a method of encapsulating energy into an easily tradable form -- my husband gives up 45-50 hrs a week of his energy, to receive something which he can trade for a certain quantity of the energy of farmers and utility workers and yes, petroleum, and other peoples' energy too, like the assembly-line workers of China who make vape gear. It could be *batteries* -- another encapsulated form of energy -- but there has to be some easily-tradable means.

Andria

* chuckling * A few tell me I have an illness in the head, or that I'm touched. Think they are saying what used to be said. "You are mad as a hatter." * grins and chuckles *

Besides not really a compliant more as seeing things broken down to simple truths, being as objective as can.

Money is merely a method of encapsulating energy into an easily tradable form ...

Apologies, I have to bump this a little. Money encapsulates value in a trade unit we can agree to use as standard. What is valued? The time spent doing the 40 to 90 hour weeks. You are paid for your time. You agree to that value. Sellers agree to accept, in this case, our unit of debt metered by the value of your time.

but there has to be some easily-tradable means

I agree fully and understand that. You may want to look up Ithica dollars, or Hour Money. This is but one example of a different means to measure value. Buyers and sellers are ultimately what the whole system comes down to, if these two agree a buyer can give a shirt and get a week of food, is that not trading?

Hoping next year to get a good plot of beans growing. I know how to grow food, how to hunt it, fish it. I know about fencing things in or out. Obviously having been military, I know how to use firearms and act as a sentry. Know how to make fire in let me see ...at least a half dozen ways in as many conditions.

Guess what? That knowledge and experience also translates into value. Know what else? You cannot take knowledge and experience away from the holder of it. You may benefit from it if you're offered that. But you cannot take it away. I know about using a forge, welding too. Know splitting firewood and using a wood stove to cook, cure, keep warm. Can even generate electricity if needed from a wood stove, granted it wouldn't be easy but it can/could be done.

Bring on the zombie apocalypse. I'm going to get a t-shirt like my younger brother has. "FYI: In the event of a zombie apocalypse, I will trip you." Translated it is not as cruel as it may seem. It means I will survive. I know how to do that. If you want to survive too, let me and mine be to grow, gather food, resources. We'll share for sure but all the same let us be and we'll let y'all be too. We can all get on together or not at all.

See? That's why we are here in this now. We had some idiots think they were/are better than any. Truth be none is better than any, we all the same, even the pesky little flea on the dog. We all got big problems in the world. Let us all set aside these littler problems, like ego, like a need for an illusion (control). None of us control a thing except our choice. You think otherwise, go yell at a tornado and tell it to go around you as its touching down. See how that fares out for ya.

We recently had one rip through here. Yes it was a wee tiny one. Still fell all sorts of trees, moved a few houses (trailers) upset some apple carts. The horses got skeered. You don't tell it where to go. *chuckles* You just hope you run faster.

Other littler problems? Well, how about skin tone color? You think death cares? How about what version of holy pine cones you pray to? Again, see death caring? Does hunger care if you're rich or poor? No. And yes I've seen starving rich folks. They starve for more, more money, more power, more of everything but what they need.

Ah, I ramble too much. Excuse me, will climb this ladder here to the lurking loft.

 

[MyMagicMist]

An article to give a bit more depth to what I tried to say in my previous post... which got a bit rambly and weird. I blame tapatalk and beer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/07/opinion/how-the-big-tobacco-deal-went-bad.html

Interesting.

The only possible solution seems to be direct action by the voters — in the name of future taxpayers — who could call for and pass a referendum prohibiting the issue of new tobacco settlement bonds and stopping the restructuring of existing bonds without voter approval.

From the article comes the above. Direct action mean we go with pitchforks & torches? Seems to me even if those representing us do, do something allegedly for us, it still gets perverted for them to benefit. I'm sure somewhere an investment banker or two greased some representative's palm or few with that money stuff. In fact the article says fairly much that exact thing. There again, money voting, not the people. Even if the people vote, ain't no count.

 

[AndriaD]

I agree with all that, and I have never and WILL NEVER understand why, when someone is already so rich they can never hope to spend all that they have, they still want more. It's just insane.

I also share your dismay at the weather -- best you can do is hide (get out of the way). My cat looks at me with such outrage, not understanding at all that I am not in charge of when the rain falls.

But... wishing for some other form of "currency" is somewhat on a par with wishing for "honest politicians" -- an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Just ain't gonna happen. Unless the fecal matter hits the revolving blades and everything we know is completely gone -- revolution. I know a revolution is coming; there is too much corruption, and too many angry people, for it NOT to come. I just can't decide if I want it to come in my lifetime, or wait till I'm gone. But like weather, I suspect that my desires are irrelevant; it will come when people are angry enough, and there are no more inane reality shows on TV to entertain them; if it comes while I'm still alive, like weather, I suspect the best I'll be able to do is get out of the way and hide, and hope to survive it.

Andria

 

[MyMagicMist]

I agree with all that, and I have never and WILL NEVER understand why, when someone is already so rich they can never hope to spend all that they have, they still want more. It's just insane.

I also share your dismay at the weather -- best you can do is hide (get out of the way). My cat looks at me with such outrage, not understanding at all that I am not in charge of when the rain falls.

But... wishing for some other form of "currency" is somewhat on a par with wishing for "honest politicians" -- an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Just ain't gonna happen. Unless the fecal matter hits the revolving blades and everything we know is completely gone -- revolution. I know a revolution is coming; there is too much corruption, and too many angry people, for it NOT to come. I just can't decide if I want it to come in my lifetime, or wait till I'm gone. But like weather, I suspect that my desires are irrelevant; it will come when people are angry enough, and there are no more inane reality shows on TV to entertain them; if it comes while I'm still alive, like weather, I suspect the best I'll be able to do is get out of the way and hide, and hope to survive it.

Andria

I also share your dismay at the weather -- best you can do is hide (get out of the way). My cat looks at me with such outrage, not understanding at all that I am not in charge of when the rain falls.

Yep, two of my six to eight kids are ninja cats. The older one fusses. "raaaaaain!" Silly bugger then sets out in it.

I know a revolution is coming; there is too much corruption, and too many angry people, for it NOT to come. I just can't decide if I want it to come in my lifetime, or wait till I'm gone.

Pardon me, not meant as derogatory or perverse, I speak like the old timers a bit so hopefully you'll forgive. Darling, the evolution is already here. We aren't going to revolve this time. We aren't coming back around. We're going further, father, higher. Sweetie, we done seen this jack boot of tyranny too dang long and seen how it comes back round if we revolt. Look at the word, it comes from revolve, to go round. Well, now we're evolving and your steeping in it. Check out what brothers and sisters are doing in Brazil. We got a nutter/brother in Africa too.



As this man puts it far more eloquently, "this s___ has got to go!" And no, I'm not affiliated with Venus Project, Zeitgeist Movement. Yes, I think the Venus Project has merits. We do need to embrace technology more so. But we need to use it to bring us together more than apart. There are great strides to that.

Bah, I'm really lurking. *chuckles*

 

[AndriaD]

Yep, two of my six to eight kids are ninja cats. The older one fusses. "raaaaaain!" Silly bugger then sets out in it.



Pardon me, not meant as derogatory or perverse, I speak like the old timers a bit so hopefully you'll forgive. Darling, the evolution is already here. We aren't going to revolve this time. We aren't coming back around. We're going further, father, higher. Sweetie, we done seen this jack boot of tyranny too dang long and seen how it comes back round if we revolt. Look at the word, it comes from revolve, to go round. Well, now we're evolving and your steeping in it. Check out what brothers and sisters are doing in Brazil. We got a nutter/brother in Africa too.



As this man puts it far more eloquently, "this s___ has got to go!" And no, I'm not affiliated with Venus Project, Zeitgeist Movement. Yes, I think the Venus Project has merits. We do need to embrace technology more so. But we need to use it to bring us together more than apart. There are great strides to that.

Bah, I'm really lurking. *chuckles*

I dunno; there's still far too much blather about the Kardashians to think that any sort of revolution is already underway. Bread and circuses.... some of the bread may be gone, but the circuses are bigger and stupider than ever.

Andria

 

[MyMagicMist]

I dunno; there's still far too much blather about the Kardashians to think that any sort of revolution is already underway. Bread and circuses.... some of the bread may be gone, but the circuses are bigger and stupider than ever.

Andria

* sits nodding with a grin, ties his finger up *