It's time to fight fire with fire

[DC2]

Guys.. You absolutely CAN NOT be militant and so forceful in choosing your words while campaigning against the non-believers.


What they have on their side is memory of years-and-years of family members dying premature deaths.. we have ALL suffered at the hands of tobacco burning..


It's important that we decouple the act of vaping from the act of smoking.. and also that we NOT use the same scare tactics of anti-smoking..

We have to be open.. and FRIENDLY... people do not respond well to FORCE.. it has never worked well, and it only stops the message..


We can yell until we're blue... the yelling just get people to shun us, and flip-us-the-bird...

We have to entice them with Coffee and Cake... Then they'll sit down, and see... Hey, vaping is great with Coffee and Cake...

Well, that kind of depends on if you are dealing the general public...
Or those whose careers depend on demonizing us.

I was under the impression this thread was about dealing with those whose entire goal is to demonize us...
To eliminate us.

In that case, the common sense approach you are espousing is useless.
They don't care about common sense, as their weapons are lies, misdirection, and demonization.

They are never going to sit down and have cake and coffee with us.
In fact, the only way to stop them is to expose them for exactly what they are.

And what they are is murderers.

 

[classwife]

People are entitled to their own thoughts and methodologies as to how they handle issues.


Calling someone ANTZ because they would react differently than you would is a personal attack and this will stop.


http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html

9. Personal attacks
You can disagree with the subject matter of a post, but never personally attack the poster - “Attack the post, not the poster”. Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself: with courtesy.

 

[Anjaffm]

Guys.. You absolutely CAN NOT be militant and so forceful in choosing your words while campaigning against the non-believers.


What they have on their side is memory of years-and-years of family members dying premature deaths.. we have ALL suffered at the hands of Tobacco burning..


It's important that we decouple the act of vaping from the act of smoking.. and also that we NOT use the same scare tactics of anti-smoking..

We have to be open.. and FRIENDLY... people do not respond well to FORCE.. it has never worked well, and it only stops the message..


We can yell until we're blue... the yelling just get people to shun us, and flip-us-the-bird...

We have to entice them with Coffee and Cake... Then they'll sit down, and see... Hey, vaping is great with Coffee and Cake...

I can see that you have not been vaping for long.
I can see that you have not concerned yourself with vaping for long.
I can see that you have not been friendly, patient, provided pages upon pages of scientific studies - to be ignored.
I can see that you have not been persistent, contacted people again and again, providing information, providing more scientific studies - and been ignored.
- All the while seeing new fearmongering lies in the media. From the same people who have the studies right on their desk. Because you provided them. -
I can see that you have not written approx. 300 e-mail messages to elected representatives, with scientific studies as attachments. With links, with information, with everything.
I can see that you have not seen how the decision taken by these elected representatives was overturned by unelected bureaucrats.
I can see that you have not seen a mercenary ... person... in the pay of Big Pharma give a triumphant smile when Big Pharma won against the will of the people, against the will of their elected representatives.

I can see that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Forget coffee. The only thing that can turn those in power, those in the pay of Big Industry, is money. More money than normal citizens could ever hope to collect.

I can see that you have no idea what you are talking about. Then please do not talk about it. Especially not to the people who have been there. Thank you.

 

[e-pipeman]

Calling someone ANTZ because they would react differently than you would is a personal attack and this will stop.

Well, if you had read the post you would realise that tobacco-related deaths were being cited in an inappropriate way. This is not a "reacting differently" situation. This is another example of the kind of attack against vaping that has become so prevalent lately.

 

[twgbonehead]

@twgbonehead:

Germany cannot decide not to implement an EU regulation. Just as Kasakhstan had to implement any regulation coming from Moscow.
And it is completely irrelevant whether a country is the biggest net payer in that EUSSR or the poorest, smallest member.

As to modifiying: Oh yes, every member state is free to make the regulations even stricter, when they implement them. They can make the e-cigs medicines if they so desire. - Germany cannot make them medicines, unless they are advertised as such. He he. See below.

(Get this: If Germany's trade surplus exceeds the limit set by Moscow.. uhm.. Brussels, then Germany will be fined by the EU. Member states get punished for having a healthy economy. It is like punishing a good soccer team for being better than other teams, during the current soccer world cup. And no, I am not making this up.)

However, the courts in Germany do their job very well. Especially the higher courts. This is our hope.
(The courts in Germany have decided - several times already - that e-cigs are not medicines. In spite of arbitrary decisions taken by some overzealous politicians. The courts in my country work by evidence. Hard evidence. Not ideology, lies and blathering. Thankfully.)


For example, that passage in the TPD that "any contribution to any cross-border activity that promotes e-cigarettes" (such as forums, youtube, blogs, vape meets, vape fairs etc) is strictly forbidden - for private citizens, no less - goes counter to the Constitution of Germany. It goes counter to the freedom of expression and the freedom of assembly. Those rights are laid down in our Constitution. Those rights are sacred and not subject to discussion or abolition. Especially not by a product (!) directive laid down in Brussels.

About "cross-border": There is freedom of movement within the EU. So that guy sitting at the table next to you may be from across the border. I tell an Austrian that I love my Evod - and I go to jail? We'll see about that.

About "contribution": politicians have tried to say that this means only financial contributions.
1. politicians will say anything
2. politicians lie all the time
3. Not one vaper in Europe trusts those people
4. Even if it means "financial contribution" - hey, I am a supporting member in ECF - which is based in the UK - - > cross-border financial contribution. -- So they are going to drag me off to jail? For paying a small amount of money to an international vaping forum? A place where a legal activity is discussed? We'll see about that.

All it needs is one court case. Just one court case. And we can blow this entire crap wide open. An EU product (!) directive that goes directly counter to the Constitution of Germany. Which seeks to invalidate the constitutional rights of citizens of a sovereign country.

Yes. All it needs is one court case.

And until we get that, we do what we can.

Oh, and if you have any kind of doubt about the kinds of "product directives" enacted by the EUSSR Central Committee.. uhm.. the European Commision, if you have any kind of doubt about their motives, take a look at this, please EU drops olive oil jug ban after public outcry - Telegraph

/edit: And anyone who has time is welcome to look at the comments underneath that article. Those are the voices of the citizens of that EUSSR. They say exactly what the citizens think of the EU. And yes, I think the same. Naturally.

Wow. You just blew my head off. Too much to respond to everything, but here's a couple thoughts.

1. How the FDA is like the Brussels Thugs:
FDA issues new statement on wood-aged cheese - SFGate

I mean, what is going on here? Has it become an international standard that regulations are meant to be bought, and at bargain-basement prices? Americans have been screaming for campaign finance reform, and limits on lobbyists, and it will NEVER go anywhere; our overlapping series of elections pretty much ensures that this is a time-honored tradition that we are stuck with forever. (Hence the fact that the FDA is able to exempt "Premium Cigars" from the deeming regs, but somehow "Premium E-ciggs" are not legally eligible for the same kind of treatment. Guess which District in the US consumes way more than it's share of premium cigars, and which district has the highest ratio of "Premium Cigars Consumed"/"Premium Cigars Paid for by the Consumer").

And, in your original link the whining of Pekka Pesonen is unbelievable! "It's so unfair, we got caught after the bank heist, the police had plenty of opportunities to arrest us earlier! Once we took the money we should have been able to keep it legally!"

2. Unbelievable, that excerpt I highlighted in your response. One of the things that has really opened my eyes is this forum, and the different issues faced by vapers (and lesser citizens ;-) ) of other countries. For example, the SG group; my heart goes out to them. The totally shocking thing is that not only COULD it happen here in the US, it IS happening here in the US. (And in the EU!). Between the two of us, we're supposed to be the "Shining Light" to show the rest of the world how civilized nations behave. Not to dictate, but to set an example. "Mission Accomplished!".

 

[twgbonehead]

We have to entice them with Coffee and Cake... Then they'll sit down, and see... Hey, vaping is great with Coffee and Cake...

We can't afford to pay for the opportunity to buy them a cup of coffee.
We'd get arrested if we tried to offer them the cake that makes the difference.
And Vaping would be prohibited in the restaurant, although cigars would be OK.

 

[Anjaffm]

Wow. You just blew my head off. Too much to respond to everything, but here's a couple thoughts.

1. How the FDA is like the Brussels Thugs:
FDA issues new statement on wood-aged cheese - SFGate

I mean, what is going on here? Has it become an international standard that regulations are meant to be bought, and at bargain-basement prices? Americans have been screaming for campaign finance reform, and limits on lobbyists, and it will NEVER go anywhere; our overlapping series of elections pretty much ensures that this is a time-honored tradition that we are stuck with forever. (Hence the fact that the FDA is able to exempt "Premium Cigars" from the deeming regs, but somehow "Premium E-ciggs" are not legally eligible for the same kind of treatment. Guess which District in the US consumes way more than it's share of premium cigars, and which district has the highest ratio of "Premium Cigars Consumed"/"Premium Cigars Paid for by the Consumer").

And, in your original link the whining of Pekka Pesonen is unbelievable! "It's so unfair, we got caught after the bank heist, the police had plenty of opportunities to arrest us earlier! Once we took the money we should have been able to keep it legally!"

2. Unbelievable, that excerpt I highlighted in your response. One of the things that has really opened my eyes is this forum, and the different issues faced by vapers (and lesser citizens ;-) ) of other countries. For example, the SG group; my heart goes out to them. The totally shocking thing is that not only COULD it happen here in the US, it IS happening here in the US. (And in the EU!). Between the two of us, we're supposed to be the "Shining Light" to show the rest of the world how civilized nations behave. Not to dictate, but to set an example. "Mission Accomplished!".

(thank you for the edit, dear. I WAS wondering... )

1.
OMG, that link is unbelievable! Yes, your FDA is like our EU. Destroy the artisan community, destroy small businesses, and thus hand the entire market over to Big Industry, under the pretence of "protecting people for their own good" (just like the olive oil nonsense in the EU. Just like the TPD). Never mind that by doing so, you destroy the business and workplaces of working, taxpaying citizens. Never mind that you throw their workers out on the street. And never mind that citizens may just LIKE to purchase tasty, healthy products made the traditional way from small artisan businesses instead of factory-made crap sold by Big Industry. Never mind that customers just may want to have a choice?

(I remember living in the States 1980 - 1982 and being horrified at the commercials for so-called "American cheese" - as in processed cheese. Not real cheese. I remember being horrified at watching such a commercial in which a mother gave a slice of this processed product to a small child, who ate it. I was like "They are feeding their children WHAT?" - Explanation: in Europe, we eat real cheese. Like those cheeses made by the artisan community in the link. Not a processed product full of salt, preservatives and what-have-you. - No offense intended. I like America. But processed cheese is not real cheese and most certainly not a healthy product to feed to a child.)

2. Yeah. Shining light my foot. America has become an oligarchy, not a democracy (see here ) and the European Union as an institution is as far removed from democracy as the Soviet Union used to be. God save the rest of the world from having to follow those examples.

And what is an SG group, please? Google does not help if I have no idea what I am looking for. The first hit is a car maker in China

 

[twgbonehead]

The SG group is here on ECF. They are in a country where vaping is illegal, and they must post everything in very couched terms because they know the authorities are watching and are keeping track of those that get caught. Strong winds.

Hope you don't mind if I don't post a link.

 

[Anjaffm]

@twgbonehead:
Thank you, dear. And yes, in Europe there are also countries where vaping is illegal.
One of those countries, Lithuania, is a small country of 3.5 million people where Philip Morris is the 2nd largest taxpayer. That country held the (rotating) European Council presidency when the TPD was passed. The self-same "regulation" that will destroy the competition to their darling 2nd largest taxpayer.

 

[Fizzpop]

This is a very good idea. CASAA needs to hire an advertising group to promote vaping. We need clever one-liners. As dumb as it may be, people have the attention span of a gnat.

 

[classwife]

Well, if you had read the post you would realise that tobacco-related deaths were being cited in an inappropriate way. This is not a "reacting differently" situation. This is another example of the kind of attack against vaping that has become so prevalent lately.

I have read the posts.

It's simply a different way of handling things than you would.


Still...courtesy and the rules apply

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html

9. Personal attacks
You can disagree with the subject matter of a post, but never personally attack the poster - “Attack the post, not the poster”. Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself: with courtesy.



I think ECF staff is sharp enough to be able to tell one kind of a poster from another, please leave it to us


SG
It is a horrible situation there. Huge fines and/or imprisonment involved.

 

[Myk]

(I remember living in the States 1980 - 1982 and being horrified at the commercials for so-called "American cheese" - as in processed cheese. Not real cheese.

Don't knock American Cheese, it's the only cheeseburger cheese I can eat. Velveeta is also processed cheese food but it's yellow cheddar base so I can't eat it, naturally yellow cheddar which I would love on a burger is out of the question. I haven't had the guts to try other yellow cheeses like Colby. Swiss and PepperJack is OK but not what I want with a burger.

 

[e-pipeman]

Don't knock American Cheese, it's the only cheeseburger cheese I can eat. Velveeta is also processed cheese food but it's yellow cheddar base so I can't eat it, naturally yellow cheddar which I would love on a burger is out of the question. I haven't had the guts to try other yellow cheeses like Colby. Swiss and PepperJack is OK but not what I want with a burger.

For a burger I like the plasticky sheets that would typically be found on a burger you bought from a shop. If you put extra-mature English cheddar on it it tastes great - but not like a burger imho. I go plasticky for burgers.

 

[twgbonehead]

Don't knock American Cheese, it's the only cheeseburger cheese I can eat. Velveeta is also processed cheese food but it's yellow cheddar base so I can't eat it, naturally yellow cheddar which I would love on a burger is out of the question. I haven't had the guts to try other yellow cheeses like Colby. Swiss and PepperJack is OK but not what I want with a burger.

Here's the thing. There is actually a real cheese called "American Cheese". Comes in both white and yellow. Comes in a brick form, and can be sliced at the deli just like any other cheese. (I actually like the white, although it is not my favorite by far).

There is also what used to be called "Cheese Food", which is now called "Processed Cheese". This always comes in "individually wrapped"
slices (because it would all glom together in a lump if it wasn't). AFAIK there isn't any cheese whatsoever in these, they're made from oil and artificial flavorings. And they always have the name "American" on them somewhere.

 

[twgbonehead]

It is a horrible situation there. Huge fines and/or imprisonment involved.

And yet they brave it all to help each other. They know who is watching, and how dangerous it is. I would vote them as some of the real heroes of ECF except the extra publicity would only hurt.

 

[Myk]

For a burger I like the plasticky sheets that would typically be found on a burger you bought from a shop. If you put extra-mature English cheddar on it it tastes great - but not like a burger imho. I go plasticky for burgers.

That's like pepperjack, it would be great, but it's just not right

Plus I have a color thing. Without the plastic yellow cheese (or any cheese) I need mustard on a burger. With the yellow it's ketchup.

Here's the thing. There is actually a real cheese called "American Cheese". Comes in both white and yellow. Comes in a brick form, and can be sliced at the deli just like any other cheese. (I actually like the white, although it is not my favorite by far).

There is also what used to be called "Cheese Food", which is now called "Processed Cheese". This always comes in "individually wrapped"
slices (because it would all glom together in a lump if it wasn't). AFAIK there isn't any cheese whatsoever in these, they're made from oil and artificial flavorings. And they always have the name "American" on them somewhere.

I knew American had real cheese options but I wasn't thinking it at the time. Now that you mentioned it I remember checking my slices and finding they were real.

If Velveeta has no cheddar to make it cheddar-like I'd like to know what the similarity is because whatever it is is what gives me gastro problems with both.
White cheddar is fine.

I'd ask the FDA but I'm sure they "don't know what's in it". I think it's present formula is from 1953 so they haven't had time to ask anyone for the recipe.

 

[e-pipeman]

That's like pepperjack, it would be great, but it's just not right

Plus I have a color thing. Without the plastic yellow cheese (or any cheese) I need mustard on a burger. With the yellow it's ketchup.




I knew American had real cheese options but I wasn't thinking it at the time. Now that you mentioned it I remember checking my slices and finding they were real.

If Velveeta has no cheddar to make it cheddar-like I'd like to know what the similarity is because whatever it is is what gives me gastro problems with both.
White cheddar is fine.

I'd ask the FDA but I'm sure they "don't know what's in it". I think it's present formula is from 1953 so they haven't had time to ask anyone for the recipe.

I don't care what's in it if it tastes great. To achieve this for me there has to be a guy in a beaten-up van who will do the burger with the following ingredients:
(a) plastic cheese
(b) very brown onions
(c) mustard
(d) tomato ketchup
(e) chilli sauce

If I have the above then the bun could be an old shoe from the gutter.

 

[StereoDreamer]

How about doing something to "send a message", rather than just posting in the comments section of news stories?

I suggest that EVERY vaper who is legally able to do so, should buy at least ONE new firearm from an FFL dealer every three months. By doing so, you must fill out a Form 4473, and have a NICS check done, thereby establishing a record with the Federal Government that you have purchased a firearm.

Let them know where you REALLY stand as a vaper, and that you are not only willing, but CAPABLE of defending your rights against tyrannical oppression.

I mean, if we're gonna "talk the talk", we need to be able to "walk the walk"...

 

[e-pipeman]

How about doing something to "send a message", rather than just posting in the comments section of news stories?

I suggest that EVERY vaper who is legally able to do so, should buy at least ONE new firearm from an FFL dealer every three months. By doing so, you must fill out a Form 4473, and have a NICS check done, thereby establishing a record with the Federal Government that you have purchased a firearm.

Let them know where you REALLY stand as a vaper, and that you are not only willing, but CAPABLE of defending your rights against tyrannical oppression.

I mean, if we're gonna "talk the talk", we need to be able to "walk the walk"...

An interesting point - but in England we have very strict gun control laws. This means that not many people get shot (unless they stand in the way of a pheasant) and so we defend ourselves with words. Both weapon and armour.

 

[Myk]

How about doing something to "send a message", rather than just posting in the comments section of news stories?

I suggest that EVERY vaper who is legally able to do so, should buy at least ONE new firearm from an FFL dealer every three months. By doing so, you must fill out a Form 4473, and have a NICS check done, thereby establishing a record with the Federal Government that you have purchased a firearm.

Let them know where you REALLY stand as a vaper, and that you are not only willing, but CAPABLE of defending your rights against tyrannical oppression.

I mean, if we're gonna "talk the talk", we need to be able to "walk the walk"...

I used to buy a gun every year or two to have a background check run to make sure I didn't have any warrants being hidden while they racked up more charges but do you know how expensive every 3 months would be?

Other CASAA members got a reply from Durbin on the last CTA. I did not. I'm sure he has me on a list already from my NRA mailings to him.