Uma, please go and put this on Jay Rockefellers Facebook page, please, please please!!!
https://www.facebook.com/SenRockefeller
It's time to fight fire with fire
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Uma, please go and put this on Jay Rockefellers Facebook page, please, please please!!!
https://www.facebook.com/SenRockefeller
I was actually thinking of sending in an application to the FDA every month or so for a product approval. Copies of the MDS for PG, VG, Flavorings, and Aluminum, Pyrex, Stainless, Kanthal, cotton, Rayon, silica, etc. Attach publicly-available studies on the harm and/or benefits. Pick a different product every month, between e-liquid formulations, head designs, coil replacements, batteries, etc.
Anybody know if there is a filing fee (and what it is?)
Anybody know if there is a filing fee (and what it is?)
Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that smoking is probably a significant earner for government.
I'd like to see this calculation done for the USA - in the UK smoking is a monster revenue generator and savings creator for government, perhaps even as much as 4% of GDP when all the odds 'n ends are totalled up. The larger parts of the calc go like this:
Around 2012, the total retail value of tobacco sales in the UK was £14 billion.
The government received £12bn, the tobacco industry £2bn.
Government saved £7.5bn on pensions as smokers die early (somebody else calculated this).
Gov saved about £7.5bn on healthcare, social support, and other costs for the elderly, as smokers die early.
Gov received about £1bn in taxes (income tax, VAT) generated by retailing of tobacco products.
Gov received about £2bn in taxes generated through pharma and other channels as a result of treating smoking-related disease (income tax etc).
Gov spent about £3bn on healthcare for smokers (treating smoking-related disease).
Gov paid out around £2bn in sickness benefit for smokers off work.
So gov received £29.5bn generated by smoking and paid out £5bn, a net profit of around £25bn. The tobacco industry made £2bn, so immediately it is obvious that government is a greater than 90% stakeholder in cigarette/tobacco sales, and the tobacco industry is just a minor partner. You buy your cigarettes from the government.
The gov net gain from smoking in the UK is so great because:
a. Tobacco taxes are incredibly high.
b. It is a socialised state, so the savings on costs for the elderly (pensions, healthcare etc) when they die young are significant.
c. Smoking generates, and saves, so much money for government that the cost of treating sick smokers is only a small fraction of the revenues gained.
It is usually argued that smokers die on average 5 to 10 years early. I have never seen any figures that appeared honest and reliable, but an average of 5 years early seems hard to dispute. About 0.8% of all smokers in the UK die every year from smoking-related disease, which is about 100,000 people.
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Can anyone run this calc for the USA? Thanks.
I'd like to see this calculation done for the USA - in the UK smoking is a monster revenue generator and savings creator for government, perhaps even as much as 4% of GDP when all the odds 'n ends are totalled up. The larger parts of the calc go like this:
Around 2012, the total retail value of tobacco sales in the UK was £14 billion.
The government received £12bn, the tobacco industry £2bn.
Government saved £7.5bn on pensions as smokers die early (somebody else calculated this).
Gov saved about £7.5bn on healthcare, social support, and other costs for the elderly, as smokers die early.
Gov received about £1bn in taxes (income tax, VAT) generated by retailing of tobacco products.
Gov received about £2bn in taxes generated through pharma and other channels as a result of treating smoking-related disease (income tax etc).
Gov spent about £3bn on healthcare for smokers (treating smoking-related disease).
Gov paid out around £2bn in sickness benefit for smokers off work.
So gov received £29.5bn generated by smoking and paid out £5bn, a net profit of around £25bn. The tobacco industry made £2bn, so immediately it is obvious that government is a greater than 90% stakeholder in cigarette/tobacco sales, and the tobacco industry is just a minor partner. You buy your cigarettes from the government.
The gov net gain from smoking in the UK is so great because:
a. Tobacco taxes are incredibly high.
b. It is a socialised state, so the savings on costs for the elderly (pensions, healthcare etc) when they die young are significant.
c. Smoking generates, and saves, so much money for government that the cost of treating sick smokers is only a small fraction of the revenues gained.
It is usually argued that smokers die on average 5 to 10 years early. I have never seen any figures that appeared honest and reliable, but an average of 5 years early seems hard to dispute. About 0.8% of all smokers in the UK die every year from smoking-related disease, which is about 100,000 people.
-------------------------
Can anyone run this calc for the USA? Thanks.
"Local Government to Ban Fog, Says It Entices Children To Take Up Smoking"
"Democrat Senators Declare War On Flavors, Flavors Win By A Landslide"
"FDA To Regulate Tobacco Control Movement As A Component of Big Pharma"
"American Youth Insist They Had No Idea What 'Vaping' Was Until CDC Kept Forcing Surveys On Them"
"Democrat Senators Declare War On Flavors, Flavors Win By A Landslide"
"FDA To Regulate Tobacco Control Movement As A Component of Big Pharma"
"American Youth Insist They Had No Idea What 'Vaping' Was Until CDC Kept Forcing Surveys On Them"
While I doubt that I will get as intellectually in depth involved as ya'll, I must say this much.
A recent poster somewhere here, new to vaping, somewhere on this huge forum made a post;
I don't even remember the topic but I remember one thing clearly. As he was speaking of him
and wifey's gear, he used the term "e-gig". It hit me like a ton of bricks. I said from the beginning,
that I think one of the biggest blunders was the terminology of "cigg- and - smoke".
I just wish these things were never titled "cigg" and shops/suppliers never used "smoke" in their names.
ie "Alt-smoke" supplier. I have NOTHING against them, I use them. I'm just sick of growling at non-vapers
saying "ITS NOT SMOKE" when I vape. Or this is not a cigarette .
So, the fellow who called his stash "e-gig" was spot on. I feel like we gave the anti vapers, ammo from start . . . .
Just my "one" cent as I can't afford two . . . . .
~Barbara~
ps. I often wondered if the posters "e-gig" terminology was a typo or just his style . . . . .
A recent poster somewhere here, new to vaping, somewhere on this huge forum made a post;
I don't even remember the topic but I remember one thing clearly. As he was speaking of him
and wifey's gear, he used the term "e-gig". It hit me like a ton of bricks. I said from the beginning,
that I think one of the biggest blunders was the terminology of "cigg- and - smoke".
I just wish these things were never titled "cigg" and shops/suppliers never used "smoke" in their names.
ie "Alt-smoke" supplier. I have NOTHING against them, I use them. I'm just sick of growling at non-vapers
saying "ITS NOT SMOKE" when I vape. Or this is not a cigarette .
So, the fellow who called his stash "e-gig" was spot on. I feel like we gave the anti vapers, ammo from start . . . .
Just my "one" cent as I can't afford two . . . . .
~Barbara~
ps. I often wondered if the posters "e-gig" terminology was a typo or just his style . . . . .
(LOL, I can't use my senator's name) Durbin wants to condemn 4.6 million kids alive today to an early death to keep kids in the future from having an option to not smoke, which 3000 a day have been doing with the present 20 year old plans to keep them from smoking.
An interesting point - but in England we have very strict gun control laws. This means that not many people get shot (unless they stand in the way of a pheasant) and so we defend ourselves with words. Both weapon and armour.
Ah, the "much more civilized" UK...
Where the primary cause of death in homicide is bludgeoning, according to WHO and Interpol statistics.
Because a criminal slowly beating the life out of you with a cricket bat is SOOOOO much more civilized than if they use a Glock.
And where taking the firearms away from the "common people" has made England so safe that the Bobbies now must patrol London with full-auto MP-5s.
I see what you did there... ;-)
I would suggest that every vaper who lives in a city that has banned public vaping should go around to all the nightclubs, and phone in reports to the police of "indoor vaping" on the nightclubs that use fog machines.
Because from a technical standpoint, a Fog Machine is nothing more than a humongous zero-nic, unflavored e-cig (the professional ones use PG to make the fog)
I never quite understood that mentality.
A slow painful death vs a quick painful death. Let's outlaw the quick painful death?
Guys.. You absolutely CAN NOT be militant and so forceful in choosing your words while campaigning against the non-believers.
What they have on their side is memory of years-and-years of family members dying premature deaths.. we have ALL suffered at the hands of Tobacco burning..
It's important that we decouple the act of vaping from the act of smoking.. and also that we NOT use the same scare tactics of anti-smoking..
We have to be open.. and FRIENDLY... people do not respond well to FORCE.. it has never worked well, and it only stops the message..
We can yell until we're blue... the yelling just get people to shun us, and flip-us-the-bird...
We have to entice them with Coffee and Cake... Then they'll sit down, and see... Hey, vaping is great with Coffee and Cake...
Sorry, I currently live under the rule of a Pres who espouses that philosophy in his foreign policy.... it DOES NOT work and simply makes our adversaries view us as weak. We deal with bullies to start with. Who do bullies pick on?
Note: no intention to send this thread OT or turn it political... just my backup for why the philosophy doesn't work... and, yeh, hit a nerve.
@rolygate:
Thank you very much for that calculation.
I live in Germany, where we have old-age pensions and health care "for free" (meaning that we pay fees all our working lives and then receive those benefits when we need them), and it is the same here.
I am also sick and tired of the old "we all have to pay for your smoking" nonsense.
Thank you
And I hope that somebody can do the math for the US.
........
but dear, I thought the Legal Vape 4000 was legal (caution, language in the link)
Thank you very much for that calculation.
I live in Germany, where we have old-age pensions and health care "for free" (meaning that we pay fees all our working lives and then receive those benefits when we need them), and it is the same here.
I am also sick and tired of the old "we all have to pay for your smoking" nonsense.
Thank you
And I hope that somebody can do the math for the US.
........
but dear, I thought the Legal Vape 4000 was legal
(caution, language in the link)@rolygate:
Thank you very much for that calculation.
I live in Germany, where we have old-age pensions and health care "for free" (meaning that we pay fees all our working lives and then receive those benefits when we need them), and it is the same here.
I am also sick and tired of the old "we all have to pay for your smoking" nonsense.
Thank you
And I hope that somebody can do the math for the US.
........
but dear, I thought the Legal Vape 4000 was legal
I don't think we have the numbers like that (not that are trust worthy). We have federal taxes, state taxes, local taxes so it's hard to add up.
Then government claimed medical costs in spite of most people having their own insurance and stole our court settlement money for the tobacco settlement protection, and now that we have (or are getting) mandated insurance coverage they're allowing a 50% surcharge to us while still keeping our settlement money.
So the whole government gets a lot but claim less. They spend a little but claim more. They stole even more which gets handed back to the alphabets that don't do anything or funneled into the states' general funds.
On the other hand you'll get the other side who cooks their own numbers just as badly.
BT and Big Pharmas nicotine division are in their death throws. These actions show their desperation to maintain the status quo. The cig a like divisions they purchased can't compete with better products and they don't have the knowledge or skills to make something better.
Goodbye BT.
Goodbye BT.
I expect that the major thing will be nicotine. As you say, most of the rest is simple, widely available, and they can hardly get rid of it. But they can tightly control nicotine. They might also be able to crack down on brick-n-mortar vape shops and openly selling juice with flavors. And they may be able to pass a wide-ranging "You can only vape in places where you can legally smoke, vaping is legally no different" law. Plus, they could tax the crap out of anything openly marketed as vaping related.
Those may not keep me from vaping, but they'll have a huge impact on vaping as a whole. No nicotine? That will pretty much keep smokers from switching. I'm at 0 nic now, but I'd have never gotten here if I'd had to go straight from smoking to vaping.
BT and Big Pharmas nicotine division are in their death throws. These actions show their desperation to maintain the status quo. The cig a like divisions they purchased can't compete with better products and they don't have the knowledge or skills to make something better.
Goodbye BT.
The problem I see is that BT and BP have a bunch of politicians in their pockets. What they will do is to push for major regulations on vaping, regulations that the regular mom/pop vape shops can't match. They'll regulate everyone else out of business, and then the only thing that can be legally marketed will be their cheap cig-alike crap, probably with a huge tax on it that they can use to pay off the politicians.
What everyone is afraid to say (because if you speak the truth, you get branded as a nutcase conspiracy theorist) is that the FDA, UK National Health, and all other governmental "health-related" agencies are ACTUALLY eugenics operations. Rolygates numbers prove that.
They WANT people to use cigarettes. Not for the money, but because it allows them to slow-kill large segments of the population who are otherwise difficult to manage by the ruling elite--workers, producers, minorities, and the poor. By keeping these groups marginally sick and diseased--too unhealthy to rise up for themselves, but healthy enough to work as effective slaves--the ruling elite can siphon off their labor and value, steal their property and ransack their wealth through the health care system.
They don't want to just kill all the "useless eaters" off suddenly--there is no joy in that for a psychopath. They must slowly and torturously drain their life force off like vampires. Anyone who really understands how health care, insurance, and governmental oversight on food and drugs works understands this to be the case.
"Tobacco control", is NOT about tobacco. It's about CONTROL. Just like "gun control" isn't about guns--it too is about control...
But none dare speak the truth...
They WANT people to use cigarettes. Not for the money, but because it allows them to slow-kill large segments of the population who are otherwise difficult to manage by the ruling elite--workers, producers, minorities, and the poor. By keeping these groups marginally sick and diseased--too unhealthy to rise up for themselves, but healthy enough to work as effective slaves--the ruling elite can siphon off their labor and value, steal their property and ransack their wealth through the health care system.
They don't want to just kill all the "useless eaters" off suddenly--there is no joy in that for a psychopath. They must slowly and torturously drain their life force off like vampires. Anyone who really understands how health care, insurance, and governmental oversight on food and drugs works understands this to be the case.
"Tobacco control", is NOT about tobacco. It's about CONTROL. Just like "gun control" isn't about guns--it too is about control...
But none dare speak the truth...
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News is coming in that they are already trying to buy up the liquid nicotine sources. Not sure how much credit to give that - but there you go: no nic available and it was all done without any laws, they just bought it all.
@ Stereo
I think that anything related to the smoking area is a free-fire zone where normal rules don't apply. The consumers can be taxed at ridiculous levels, restricted unlike any other group, and even exploited to death (and any way out is banned or restricted or costs even more).
Personally I would consider that money is more important to government than anything else; and if they have an area where others can be convinced that the people in it are plague-ridden lepers who can be taxed unto death with impunity, than they have all the power they need as well.
Assigning politicians the ability to multi-task is going too far - they are way too stupid, ignorant and corrupt. They're just in it for the money, anything else is a benefit.
I think that anything related to the smoking area is a free-fire zone where normal rules don't apply. The consumers can be taxed at ridiculous levels, restricted unlike any other group, and even exploited to death (and any way out is banned or restricted or costs even more).
Personally I would consider that money is more important to government than anything else; and if they have an area where others can be convinced that the people in it are plague-ridden lepers who can be taxed unto death with impunity, than they have all the power they need as well.
Assigning politicians the ability to multi-task is going too far - they are way too stupid, ignorant and corrupt. They're just in it for the money, anything else is a benefit.
But, who are "they?" Paranoid vapor sellers? Every week we read about some federal or state scare that's going to deprive us of our nicotine.
I'm paranoid myself but because I've reduced my nicotine intake so much I'm convinced that all I'll need is some VG and flavoring and I'll be okay. I'll actually be trying that out before too long.
Heh, I had lots of stuff but while researching I found this ...
The current ecig/vaping market is about 2 billion a year with guestimated growth rates in the range upward of 10% per MONTH. The micro and craft brewing industry has 4 billion a year in revenue and a 10% per year growth rate. Both are in 'sin' industries and both have always existed under threat of total ban from everyone including the dog catcher.
Hmmmm, what a correlation. Thing is microbreweries have been around forever and vaping is less than a decade old. I wouldn't be surprised to see vaping hit 10 billion by the end of the year and 50 billion by the end of the decade. When you tie this to how many years it normally takes for any kind of regulation to be decided on, much less put into effect, well, it's really hard to say, "We're going to shut down a 50 billion a year industry because it makes us all warm and fuzzy inside."
Even the stupidest politician can figure out how that's going to go over with the voters.
And that's the key: you nailed it.
They have all the money and power, we have a small group of people. Our job is to turn that into a large group of people before they can get their A into gear.
They have all the money and power, we have a small group of people. Our job is to turn that into a large group of people before they can get their A into gear.
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