Just a warning.. Genesis.

[ConradM]

Thanks for all of the contributions to this thread, which I will be in for the next few hours watching, and then re watching the two videos that were posted ... To oxidize, or not to oxidize that is the question, and a highly debated one too. There are those who belong to the tribal mind set of " burn it to hell and back ", which I have always found to be less credible because it seems to come from 2nd hand knowledge, as opposed to practical application and direct experience ... in other words, this advice is based purely on "what they have heard", and not what they know via trial and error.

I have done my fair share of research on this topic, as I do for everything else, and after watching upteen tutorials on the subject, and listening to contradicting opinions on "how to", I have always opted to stay away from SS mesh and just use cotton instead, because there is only one way to really know anything, and that is to directly experience it for myself ... but I wasn't sure that I really wanted to know, lol. I didn't want to be bothered with potential shorts, and constant fiddling with hot spots, and such ..

I do know that there are those who use an ekowool sleeve at the top of the wick where the coil is wrapped, supposedly to eliminate the need to oxidize, and to prevent shorts?? Can anyone answer to this?

On the strength of this thread, I am going to revisit the possibility of using SS mesh in my gennies, which I do have.

Have you tried micro coils?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jagnsVTWbdg

I've been running this setup for a few days now it's basically trouble free.

 

[Ryedan]

Thanks for all of the contributions to this thread, which I will be in for the next few hours watching, and then re watching the two videos that were posted ... To oxidize, or not to oxidize that is the question, and a highly debated one too. There are those who belong to the tribal mind set of " burn it to hell and back ", which I have always found to be less credible because it seems to come from 2nd hand knowledge, as opposed to practical application and direct experience ... in other words, this advice is based purely on "what they have heard", and not what they know via trial and error.

I have done my fair share of research on this topic, as I do for everything else, and after watching upteen tutorials on the subject, and listening to contradicting opinions on "how to", I have always opted to stay away from SS mesh and just use cotton instead, because there is only one way to really know anything, and that is to directly experience it for myself ... but I wasn't sure that I really wanted to know, lol. I didn't want to be bothered with potential shorts, and constant fiddling with hot spots, and such ..

This is so true Nikkita. That's why I don't comment on things I have not done myself without stating that. And no matter how much I've researched a process, understanding always changes for me with experience. Specially with something that has so many variables as working with SS mesh. Wire wrap tightness on the mesh, wire gauge choice, diameter of the wick hole, diameter of the mesh wick, solid wick vs hollow wick, etc, all change things and have to be accommodated.

One thing I found really helped me to avoid shorts after I finished the initial pulsing was to not stop too soon. At first I stopped when there were no shorts after pulsing a few times. Now I consider that the end of stage one. Stage two for me is gently moving (bumping) the hot wire on the mesh and pulse again. That will cause shorts. I continue that with all the coils until I can move the wire slightly and get no new shorts. I've never heard of anyone else doing this (or maybe people do it but don't talk about it).

But I wrap the wire on a drill bit which makes it round, the diameter of the drill bit and cylindrical. I use 27 gauge Kanthal which is quite thick and keeps its form after I take the drill bit out. Then I make a slightly hollow mesh a size that slips easily into the (thick and stable) coil but does not leave visible space between mesh and coil. If I were to change any of this process, I would expect to have new challenges to overcome. The devil is always in the details .

I do know that there are those who use an ekowool sleeve at the top of the wick where the coil is wrapped, supposedly to eliminate the need to oxidize, and to prevent shorts?? Can anyone answer to this?

On the strength of this thread, I am going to revisit the possibility of using SS mesh in my gennies, which I do have.

I've also heard about and watched videos about sheathing with ekowool, or cotton from a ball (just roll the wick in it and it will pick up the cotton), or wrapping cotton thread around it, but never tried these. It does make perfect sense to me that this would easily eliminate all shorts. I do wonder about the implications for the building process. Can you still insert the wick into the built coil or do you have to wrap on the wick (I've seen both done). How do you clean the wick, cotton and wire when it gets gunked up (I've never seen this discussed before) which for some of my juices means every 2 - 3 days. I considered these before I became comfortable with bare SS. Now it's not worth it to me to experiment with, but YMMV as always.

Details, details, LOL.

 

[Nikkita6]

Have you tried micro coils?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jagnsVTWbdg

I've been running this setup for a few days now it's basically trouble free.

I only wrap micro coils for coils head, RDA, and gennies ... I just haven't done so with SS mesh. Thanks for the video link, I will watch it.

 

[Nikkita6]

This is so true Nikkita. That's why I don't comment on things I have not done myself without stating that. And no matter how much I've researched a process, understanding always changes for me with experience. Specially with something that has so many variables as working with SS mesh. Wire wrap tightness on the mesh, wire gauge choice, diameter of the wick hole, diameter of the mesh wick, solid wick vs hollow wick, etc, all change things and have to be accommodated.

One thing I found really helped me to avoid shorts after I finished the initial pulsing was to not stop too soon. At first I stopped when there were no shorts after pulsing a few times. Now I consider that the end of stage one. Stage two for me is gently moving (bumping) the hot wire on the mesh and pulse again. That will cause shorts. I continue that with all the coils until I can move the wire slightly and get no new shorts. I've never heard of anyone else doing this (or maybe people do it but don't talk about it).

But I wrap the wire on a drill bit which makes it round, the diameter of the drill bit and cylindrical. I use 27 gauge Kanthal which is quite thick and keeps its form after I take the drill bit out. Then I make a slightly hollow mesh a size that slips easily into the (thick and stable) coil but does not leave visible space between mesh and coil. If I were to change any of this process, I would expect to have new challenges to overcome. The devil is always in the details .



I've also heard about and watched videos about sheathing with ekowool, or cotton from a ball (just roll the wick in it and it will pick up the cotton), or wrapping cotton thread around it, but never tried these. It does make perfect sense to me that this would easily eliminate all shorts. I do wonder about the implications for the building process. Can you still insert the wick into the built coil or do you have to wrap on the wick (I've seen both done). How do you clean the wick, cotton and wire when it gets gunked up (I've never seen this discussed before) which for some of my juices means every 2 - 3 days. I considered these before I became comfortable with bare SS. Now it's not worth it to me to experiment with, but YMMV as always.

Details, details, LOL.

You said it ... variables, oh the variables that can change the whole game. Well, in my head, and as far as using a ekowool sleeve, I would just use a small piece to cover the top portion of the wick (from the deck up).

I was also thinking that I would place the sleeve on the wick, and wrap my coil off the gennie, and then install the pre wrapped mesh wick... Of course prior to placing the eko sleeve, and wrapping the wick I would first drop it into the wick hole to gauge how long of a sleeve I would need, and to check the diameter of the mesh wick prior to actually wrapping my coil ... this is what I see in my head, even as I am not sure I will even use this method, but I like to visualize all processes before I actually try them out ...

 

[Ryedan]

You said it ... variables, oh the variables that can change the whole game. Well, in my head, and as far as using a ekowool sleeve, I would just use a small piece to cover the top portion of the wick (from the deck up).

I was also thinking that I would place the sleeve on the wick, and wrap my coil off the gennie, and then install the pre wrapped mesh wick... Of course prior to placing the eko sleeve, and wrapping the wick I would first drop it into the wick hole to gauge how long of a sleeve I would need, and to check the diameter of the mesh wick prior to actually wrapping my coil ... this is what I see in my head, even as I am not sure I will even use this method, but I like to visualize all processes before I actually try them out ...

I think what you're planning will work just fine. Personally, I wouldn't wrap a coil on the wick though as I've found that makes it hard to get the wire tension tight enough for no gaps but lose enough to be able to easily take the wick out later for cleaning. The ekowool should give you more tolerance for that, but it may also be more sensitive to being over-tight because of the choking effect that might have on it. One thing that would be a real plus with ekowool is it will not burn if you have a dry hit. This system could be very good!

Here is a guy applying cotton to a wick. Now, I think I could do this with my system and it would work the first time. I would only have to be careful to get the wick diameter correct before coating the cotton on it. A dry hit would scorch the cotton, but that might not be too bad though as I've found in my drippers using cotton the taste from a slightly dry hit doesn't last long. And this wick should be easy to remove without damaging the coil, can be properly torched, re-cottoned (I think that's a new vape engineering term

) and put back.

Well, whatever you end up trying, let us know how it goes. One of the things I don't like with SS is that it's such a heat sink. You could well end up with better performance than bare SS and that I would love to try out myself

 

[Myk]

OP, try ceramic in that TD. It's MUCH easier to build with than trying to deal with 2 ss wicks shorting.
I'm not sure if I want to go with ceramic on my other AGA's but I'm sure going to stick with it on the TD.

You don't say what you're using it on but I couldn't get any joy running it on a single battery Vamo. Once I went to stacking and could hit a satisfactory 5v burn throughs were too often.

Your wick probably shorted out on the metal bottom of the AGA's tank. You need to watch that, and make sure your wick doesn't touch it.

And what about the top deck which is just as much of the negative connection as the bottom? I stopped worrying about the ss wicks touching the bottom or the center post.

 

[JmanEspresso]

Definitely no need to torch the SS mesh if you dont want too.

I dont worry about it pre-build, but I do torch the wicks after a while of use.


A properly set up genesis atomizer, can run on the same wick and coil, for months and months. I just rebuilt my iHybrid pure today.. that is the second coil its seen. The first one, I built around halloween, when I got it.

So the process was pretty simple. loosen both + and - screws, and remove the wire. Take out the wick, and what I do here, is torch the wick. Burn off all the juice and any crud that might be built up, and then glow the wick briefly. Let it cool, put it back in the device, wrap a new coil, bingo.



Now, as for wicks not touching the tank or the center.. I invite you genny fans to try something. Next build, make your wick very short. Make it only go into the tank about 1/4 of the length of the tank. See how you like it. Its a genny, so you're going to be tilting it in some fashion anway, and with this short wick, you do need to vape at like 4oclock, and as the tank drains, closer to 3oclock.. but, otherwise.. IMO, its a great solution for juices that dont want to wick. Also, seems like the "cooking" of the juice in the tank, ie- juice loosing the sharpness of its flavor and turning darker and darker, seems to take longer to happen.

 

[Myk]

Now, as for wicks not touching the tank or the center.. I invite you genny fans to try something. Next build, make your wick very short. Make it only go into the tank about 1/4 of the length of the tank. See how you like it. Its a genny, so you're going to be tilting it in some fashion anway, and with this short wick, you do need to vape at like 4oclock, and as the tank drains, closer to 3oclock.. but, otherwise.. IMO, its a great solution for juices that dont want to wick. Also, seems like the "cooking" of the juice in the tank, ie- juice loosing the sharpness of its flavor and turning darker and darker, seems to take longer to happen.

Tried it by cutting off the burnt tops. Didn't like the lack of wicking with short wicks.
I also don't have to tilt my mesh tube wicks unless I'm trying to be a fog machine or have the power cranked.

I think if I was going with that short of a wick I'd rather make it a dripping tank set up.

 

[skakid812]

im sorry but
you do not need to oxidize a wick at all

the coil can and will oxidize the area that matters all by itself,
when the genesis style first appeared the over oxidized rusty nail looking thing is how it worked and we didnt know better, the modder Petar K showed everyone early last year none of this preparation is even needed and the raw wick will work just fine, this method improves wicking and flavor and getting rid of any break in period.

the wick not touching the bottom is to help juice flow not for shorting.


View attachment 289294




sometimes a hotspot(when a single coil glows hotter then the rest) can burn through the thin layer of oxidation and expose a raw spot of metal which will then cause a short. when you pull the wick out you can tell this happened because you can see small pinholes burned in the wick. when it is still in the atty it will look like a spark sitting on the coil.

here is the pulse method, how you set up the coil and roll the wick is whatever you decide, the method for pulsing is all that matters, i have even pulled this off on a provari (pain in the a** but i proved it can be done)

I understand what you are saying, but it still isnt clicking. You said that when a spot glows more than the other, its a hot spot. Ok I understand that concept, but you are saying that when it burns through the oxidization it can then create a short? The whole coil is hot, thus eventually will burn through and short anyways right? ah still trying to wrap my head around it. I overthink a lot.

 

[dspin]

the wick shorting on the tank is a myth if the wick is properly setup. many of us dont even oxidize anymore.

Thanks, I quit saying this a long time ago because no one believed it. Pulled the insulators out of all the Zattys too upon receiving them

 

[Thrasher]

I understand what you are saying, but it still isnt clicking. You said that when a spot glows more than the other, its a hot spot. Ok I understand that concept, but you are saying that when it burns through the oxidization it can then create a short? The whole coil is hot, thus eventually will burn through and short anyways right? ah still trying to wrap my head around it. I overthink a lot.

ok how about this -
the mesh, like all metal, mesh can only stand so much heat before it melts or burns, just like anything else.

when you get a hot spot it is usually one wrap out of the 4(or 5 or 6 etc), that one little section of wire is easily 5 times hotter then the rest of the wire.

if it keeps burning hot on this one spot it will sooner or later burn through the surface of the metal or oxidation coating or ekowool or what ever is in the way, when it finally burns its way through the only thing underneath is raw metal.

now every time you fire the atty there is a chance it will keep shorting out - a short is the electric jumping from the wire to the wick and this will further burn the metal. at this point the wick/mesh is damaged and will be nothing but problems moving forward.

the other disadvantage - remember the hot wire is 4-5 times hotter then normal - is it will burn the juice instead of vaporize it like it is supposed to and it will taste wicked nasty.


when you first set up the wick and coil you adjust the coil to remove hotspots, when the coil runs correctly the heat is even across the whole wick surface reducing the chance of shorting out or burning through. the wick heats evenly and vaporizes the wet juice correctly, then the actual wicking kicks in as juice is vaporized more juice is pulled up to the coil to keep it wet.

think of this way the coil will only make xxx amount of heat - - - so take a piece of notebook paper and a regular lighter, hold the paper over the ligher and move the ligher back and forth. the heat is spread out and the paper wont burn now if you hold the lighter on one spot the heat is concentrated and burns a hole through the paper, same effect with a consistant hot spot, too much heat in a very small area.

as long as the wick and coil are working properly and stay wet it should not get over heated, just like in the videos i posted only a dry wick should glow red the glowing stops when it stays wet.


and the other part of your question - just like ANY wick material you are slowly heating, reheating and cooking them. and sooner or later all wicks will wear out, but a mesh wick set up properly and not run dry should last a very long time as every time you fire it the juice is constantly building a layer on the mesh surface under the coil - it is only when the hotspot appears it gets too hot then burns through this protective layer. do it too much and the wick suffers from premature failure.