Just another battery question

[WitchWay]

I have been running the same pair of UltraFire ICR 123A 880mAH 3.7v batteries in the Chameleon for the last couple months. One at a time, alternating back and forth. Each one gets charged once a day at the most. So two days ago I put one of them in and I get two normal hits then it hits like the battery is almost dead. Take out the battery and test it and it test at 4.17v. Put it back in, same thing, like it is almost dead. So I take the Chameleon apart and clean all the threads and put on new Noalox. Check the adapter, so forth and so on. Same thing Dig out the pair of SpiderFire batteries that I don't use anymore and put one of those in, and it works! Wait for the second UltraFire to finish charging and put it in and it works also. Put the one that is being weird back in and still acts like it's dead.

I finally break down and ask hubby about it. So he tells me it doesn't have enough amps. Apparently I gave him what he calls 'the dumb dog look' so he follows it with... ok you're the amperage and the battery is a brickwall, you're not ample enough to get through the brickwall. At this point I'm not sure if I should be insulted or complimented, but either way I'm not talking to him anymore about it so I came here instead

So to get this straight, my battery test at full voltage, but isn't working why?

Thank you in advance for putting up with the ditz

 

[VaporMadness]

I'd be careful with that battery if i were you. I can think of two plausible explanations for what you described.

1) The battery contacts aren't making good contact anymore. Seems unlikely since it has been making contact all this time, but it could explain what you describe.

Have you tried the battery in another MOD?

2) The battery is no longer able to deliver the current required to maintain the expected 3.8v (or so) across the load. Given a fixed resistance load, like a 3ohm carto, you need about 1.27 amps to maintain a 3.8 volt drop across that load. This second explanation is a little worrisome because if this is the case, the battery is definitely acting "wierd".

Are you trying to use a LR atty with this battery? Maybe a new atty that's of lower resistance than others? Have you tried it with higher resistance atty? If this is an atty that you've used it successfully with before, I'd be all the more careful.

V is voltage in volts, R is resistance in ohms, I is current in amps, P is power in watts

V = R x I
P = V² / R = R x I²

If your battery is unable to put out 1.27 amps, something has to give given the fixed resistance. V will drop down. And P drops rapidly as voltage or current drops (notice those squared signs). So you see, you may have hit the brick wall The battery may be holding a charge, but is unable to release that charge at the rate you need to get a decent amount of power (heat).

On the bright side, the battery may hold its charge for longer. Kind of like having a pack of cigs and a lighter that won't light

See Calculations voltage current resistance and electric power - electricity calculation - electrical power formula general ohms law physics formula wheel formulas amps watts volts ohms cosine equation audio engineering pie chart charge audio engineering for more equations and a calculator that lets you compute values of P, V, R, and I given any two inputs.

 

[WitchWay]

Thank you VM!! So basically you're saying the same thing hubby said, but much nicer I do not have another mod to try it it, well except the Buzz and I'm not about to try that battery in series. It's already in the recycle battery bin anyway. It has only been used to run a 801 2.0ohm atty and the SLB 3.0ohm cartos. Oh and the new Ego Mega Carto.... hmmmmm the battery went bad right after I used that carto.

I guess I shouldn't be upset that it went. I only paid $2.50 for it and used it for more than 2 months. I do know I'm hard on batteries so I got my money's worth

 

[woodslady1]

I am so happy you posted this question, WitchWay, as I have been experiencing the identical problem with more than one or two batteries of late. I've actually gone back to using a mobile power pack with a passthru because of it. I love using the 5v device, but I hate being tethered.

VaporMadness, that was a phenomenal response you wrote. You da man!! I read it word for word to my hubby just now (didn't want the brick wall analogy from him that WW got because I fear I could go through that wall ). He's going to build me a board this weekend to test my batteries under load. He tends to get that blank stare and hears 'blah blah blah' when I go to him with problems I am having, which I do quite frequently, but he's such a trooper when it comes to building me mods, etc...anything to keep me off cigarettes. Where WitchWay posted the same problem I am having, I know that he'll finally delve into the problem. Thank you both!

 

[Switched]

Remember a discussion sometime ago about cholesterol and plaque?

As a battery is used (a cycle) the exchange of ions between the anode and cathode causes a certain amount of cholesterol to be created. As cholesterol builds up in the system, it starts to adhere to artery wall and develops plaque. If enough plaque is built up it will cause blockage, and lead to clogging the artery, and possible congestive heart failure. This cholesterol build up is a normal.

Stressing batteries causes an unusual amount of cholesterol to be created accelerating the build up of plaque. Continued use in this manner accelerates the plaque build up exponentially.

We as users are fast food junkies, hence why we have premature heart attacks or in our case battery failure.

The Secrets of battery runtime

Your 880mAh batt is capable of delivering 0.88 amps yet your 2Ohm atty is asking for 1.8A to run, that is akin to sucking a golf ball through a garden hose.

 

[VaporMadness]

The Secrets of battery runtime

This is a very nice end-user friendly write up. The section on internal resistance is what's most relevant in this discussion (if our theory of what happened to WWs batt is correct).

Lithium-ion has a slightly higher internal resistance than nickel-based batteries. The cobalt system tends to increase the internal resistance as part of aging whereas the manganese (spinel) maintains the resistance throughout its life but loses capacity through chemical reaction. Cobalt and manganese are used for the positive electrodes.

High internal resistance will eventually render the battery useless. The energy may still be present but can no longer be delivered. This condition is permanent and cannot be reversed with cycling. Cool storage at a partial state-of-charged (40%) ......s the aging process.

Interesting... so as ICRs age, the internal resistance goes up, and they're less able to provide amps. Also it says IMRs aren't susceptible to that form degradation as they age, IMRs lose capacity, but not the ability to drive amps.

So... consider that ICRs are "on the edge" so to speak to start with in being able to provide the amps that we need to vape. After a little bit of internal resistance increase due to aging, they can get pushed over the edge.

I think score another point for IMR chemistry. Based in this info, I'd expect IMRs to provide more useful cycles than ICRs when used for vaping.

 

[Vaporologist]

I love you guys!

 

[VaporMadness]

It's already in the recycle battery bin anyway.

If you have other less amp demanding uses for this size battery, you may be able to keep it going for that.

He's going to build me a board this weekend to test my batteries under load.

I'm glad it was helpful. Do be careful when tinkering with batts. I ruined one of my 510 manuals when poking it with multi-meter leads and switching it on. Accidentally shorted and the protection circuitry fried, a little wiff of electrical smoke and it was done for.

 

[woodslady1]

I'm glad it was helpful. Do be careful when tinkering with batts. I ruined one of my 510 manuals when poking it with multi-meter leads and switching it on. Accidentally shorted and the protection circuitry fried, a little wiff of electrical smoke and it was done for.

Thanks for the warning, VM. I don't worry about hubby too much as he works with electrical stuff daily (and BIG batteries). My problem is that he's been too busy doing his real job that he doesn't have time to look at his jobs at home! He'll get me taken care of this weekend, though.

 

[Switched]

I think score another point for IMR chemistry. Based in this info, I'd expect IMRs to provide more useful cycles than ICRs when used for vaping.

Absolutely! I've learned more talking and researching with you guys the last month than I have in the last 4. The KISS principle come s to mind here, or how do they say that "layman's terms".

Folks say use this, use that without explaining why. That is not what we are about when we all sit at the dinner table.

I absolutely love our exchanges. I am a research nut, and we all benefit from each others input.

Wrt WWay's battery, the trash is where it belongs. I've grown fond of Janine, and the rest of our little family. I would sure would hate to see her or any one else as a statistic. What is the cost of a battery, unless you have a battery analyzer?

 

[Vaporologist]

I've been thinking the same thing that Switched said in the last paragraph. Batteries are cheap yet dangerous. Great performing batteries belong in a PV, bad ones in the trash. It's just not worth it.

 

[VaporMadness]

I absolutely love our exchanges. I am a research nut, and we all benefit from each others input.

Me2. I'm in the propeller head camp and am forever fascinated by how stuff works. Have you guys seen the Atomizer Mod threads, folks building their own attys. I just stumbled across that corner of ECF yesterday. Strikes me that they have a goal that is not really something the commercial atty makers of the world are shooting for... an atty that lasts indefinitely and doesn't get gunked up.

Wrt WWay's battery, the trash is where it belongs.

Batteries are cheap yet dangerous. Great performing batteries belong in a PV, bad ones in the trash. It's just not worth it.

Yea, I'd probably scrap it too even if I had a low power flashlight (or something) that could make some use of it. But based on the explanation at batteryU, its likely just natural aging of the battery and not particularly sinister.

I don't do battery stacking, do you stackers out there always keep them together in pairs from birth till death... charge them together, use them together always and only together... just curious?

 

[Switched]

its likely just natural aging of the battery and not particularly sinister.

... I agree

I don't do battery stacking, do you stackers out there always keep them together in pairs from birth till death... charge them together, use them together always and only together... just curious?

Yup!
Batteries and Safety - E-Cigarette Forum post#35

Not only do we mark 'em and charge them in pairs, they need to go in the same way as well. Because the top one always drains a little faster (pos). So they are marked top and bottom as well. An indication a battery is weak is that not only will it not last as long, it won't take as long to charge them as well. When that happens, toss 'em and if it is a set, toss the set.

If you would use a partially depleted battery with an internal resistance greater that the new batt, should the protection circuit fail, you will have an overcurrent situation on the old batt and thermal runaway may indeed occur.

I got a little .... in that particular thread. I take safety very seriously, I am just as .... in the DIY sub as well. It is not hard to deipher the yahoos, which I have absolutely no time for. If they can't take their stuff seriously, then I do not want to be a part of them becoming a statistic, and I simply ignore them.

 

[mwa102464]

I do, I number my batts with a sharpy like 1 bottom 1 top 2 bottom 2 top and keep em together always. Not sure if this is best but I do it always

 

[VaporMadness]

Because the top one always drains a little faster (pos).

Why is that? Seems like they will have the same amount of current flowing thru them at the same time. How is it that the top one drains faster?

 

[WitchWay]

WOW, thank you guys so much for the fabulous answers!!! Now I understand

woods... you and I seem to have similar vaping styles and similar hubbys The other analogy that he tried to give me was to picture the battery like a jelly roll. I walked away at that point

Switched... I like the artery analogy much better!

Wrt WWay's battery, the trash is where it belongs. I've grown fond of Janine, and the rest of our little family. I would sure would hate to see her or any one else as a statistic. What is the cost of a battery, unless you have a battery analyzer?

Awwww thank you and Vaporologist and VM for the concern!! Well it's not in the trash because I am trying to be friendly to our Mother Earth, but it is in a battery recycle bin and that is where it will stay.

I don't do battery stacking, do you stackers out there always keep them together in pairs from birth till death... charge them together, use them together always and only together... just curious?

Yes, because that is what Switch said to do I have 2 pairs of batteries for my Buzz, one is marked one color and the other another color with a T or B on them. I also put them in the same slots on the charger everytime. Don't know if that makes a difference or not, but I do it any way. My Chameleon batteries have never been stacked and are marked with a third color and kept seperate from the Buzz batteries.

I do, I number my batts with a sharpy like 1 bottom 1 top 2 bottom 2 top and keep em together always. Not sure if this is best but I do it always

You and I have a similar way of doing it. Just makes it easier


Thank you again everybody!! I knew I could count on ya'll


Happy Vaping!!!

 

[Switched]

Why is that? Seems like they will have the same amount of current flowing thru them at the same time. How is it that the top one drains faster?

I don't know VM, it was reported as such by someone who is better in the know than I. I do not have a link to that post and would know where to begin. It could very well be a myth, but not one I really want to bust LOL.

The only way to tell, is to place the batteries on a battery analyser and measure the internal resistance.

It does make sense though if you look at it like the circuit of a continuous loop. When the batteries are stacked, their voltages are equal as they share back and forth because ones positive is connected to the others negative, and all is well and at rest. The fuel tank on the top battery is full so to speak, as well as the bottom batt.

In order for current to flow, we must complete the circuit, closing the contact or switch. Current has to flow, and until a contact is made, current is not flowing. The the energy of the second battery (bottom) to flow needs a place to go. Until you open the drain on the top battery, the bathtub is full of water and has no room for more water until some drains. Once this occurs, the second battery is not flowing perse. Once the drain is open, the second batt will maintain the water level for the lack of a better word. This is in a stacked application.

In a parallel application, both drains are opened simultaneously and flow to a common header prior to reaching the source. The delta wrt internal resistance is pretty moot here, as the batt with the less resistance will supply the load. In turn because the by product of work is cholesterol, cholesterol will continue to build up (internal resistance) until it has reached the level of the other batt then, once again they will supply the load uniformly. Should one batt develop more internal resistance, its buddy will supply the load, until the fatigued batt returns from its break.

In series applications the aforementioned scenario occurs as well, but differently. Because the current most flow through a resistance (akin to pushing a golf ball through a garden hose), a potential over current can occur in the batt with the lesser resistance, or over flowing of the bath tub. This in turn will stress both batteries (because the battery that caused the bath tub to overflow, now has to close its tap until the equillibirum is reached once again). The load will feel this and hence a decrease in performance. The production of cholesterol is increased because of the voltage of the application.

Until recent developments in battery design and exchanges like this, where we are starting to understand what is going on, we were indeed using our batteries in a non safe fashion, some still do.

Although less critical in parallel applications, all dual battery applications should be used and charged in pairs. The latter is extremely critical when using unprotected batteries. There is always a danger associated with using LI Ion, I just air on the side of caution. Why anyone would use unprotected batteries these days is beyond me. The incident in the link above, was indeed an unfortunate accident, that could very well have been prevented IMHO.

 

[Vaporologist]

Great info Switched. It's great being able to finally understand something so important. In fact, I cannot think of a more important vaping related subject as battery safety.

Thanks.

 

[Iken]

WOW Just incredible posts right after one another! again even!

Speaking of our lovely batteries. I'm ordering tonight. If there are any special requestas for any batteries of the AW line, Please Email me!

I wanted to stock our shelves with the Newly Released High Drain IMR 14500, but we don't really have a device to match in the store. I'll be more than happy to order them for anyone that's interested for $8.99 or the IMR high drain 18650 for $9.99.

 

[Switched]

Isaac,

If ya have the budget to do it, I would do it. If you build it, they will come.

You might not sell a 14500 device, but many use 14500 batts, and many are looking for them IMR 14500s). Hey, while they are shopping for batts, they might pick up a couple attys and a carto or two . The rich and famous might even be seduced by the fine curves of the Chameleon or the finesse of a lazer.

Man I just made that whole sales pitch sound like desert, num, num.