Latest skinny on NICOTINE in E-cigs?

[Droopy]

Hi All,

I read the e-cig nicotine absorption paper by Professor Thomas Eissenberg.

Interesting study, and I hope it's true: I would much prefer getting a "free" throat hit with nicotined juice than have to use zero nic juice with zero throat hit! (I actually would prefer that I not be absorbing nicotine into my body: I have high blood pressure, plus nic can have other negative physical effects).

However, I have a few questions:

1. Has this study been verified or negated by any other study, or even by a counter comment/argument, by other experts?

2. And, if nicotine is actually absorbed while vaping (i.e., Professor Thomas Eissenberg is proven wrong), is nic really that dangerous? [I keep hearing how "Nicotine is a stimulant, it raises blood pressure...". Problem is, no one seems to ever give the slightest indication of how much, on average, it actually raises a normal person's blood pressure. (We all know how scare-tactics work: Take a fact, and then blow it out of proportion by not getting too specific: In other words, does nic raise an average person's BP by 1%, 10%, 100%!!?? Without a ballpark average, then I have no idea)].

3. Finally: Why do some people on the Web insist that by adding Everclear or Vodka to zero nic juice you can duplicate the throat hit of normal nicotine juice? (As anyone who has even bothered to try this method well knows, a throat hit does not occur with this technique at all ).



Excuse me if this has all been done to death before (?), but I love vaping, I love the throat hit, but I don't want the nicotine: Not knowing whether the professor is correct makes me guilty when I vape, and I want to vape guilt free (guilt being one of the main reasons why I quit analogs in the first place!).

Any comments would be most appreciated!

-Droopy

 

[gashin]

Unfortunately for you, I think everyone here would disagree with the professor. I get major nic stimulation from the E-cig and it can't just be a placebo effect. Nicotine is about as dangerous as coffee as a peripheral nervous system stimulator and it's not THAT dangerous at all - in fact I'm vaping to preserve my brain as it's been shown that nicotine helps prevent Parkinson's disease by up to 50% and is being studied as a possible treatment for Alzheimers.

http://www.healthcentral.com/alzheimers/video-30628-49.html

Hi All,

I read the e-cig nicotine absorption paper by Professor Thomas Eissenberg.

Interesting study, and I hope it's true: I would much prefer getting a "free" throat hit with nicotined juice than have to use zero nic juice with zero throat hit! (I actually would prefer that I not be absorbing nicotine into my body: I have high blood pressure, plus nic can have other negative physical effects).

However, I have a few questions:

1. Has this study been verified or negated by any other study, or even by a counter comment/argument, by other experts?

2. And, if nicotine is actually absorbed while vaping (i.e., Professor Thomas Eissenberg is proven wrong), is nic really that dangerous? [I keep hearing how "Nicotine is a stimulant, it raises blood pressure...". Problem is, no one seems to ever give the slightest indication of how much, on average, it actually raises a normal person's blood pressure. (We all know how scare-tactics work: Take a fact, and then blow it out of proportion by not getting too specific: In other words, does nic raise an average person's BP by 1%, 10%, 100%!!?? Without a ballpark average, then I have no idea).

3. Finally: Why do some people on the Web insist that by adding Everclear or Vodka to zero nic juice you can duplicate the throat hit of normal nicotine juice? (As anyone who has even bothered to try this method well knows, a throat hit does not occur with this technique at all ).



Excuse me if this has all been done to death before (?), but I love vaping, I love the throat hit, but I don't want the nicotine: Not knowing whether the professor is correct makes me guilty when I vape, and I want to vape guilt free (guilt being one of the main reasons why I quit analogs in the first place!).

Any comments would be most appreciated!

-Droopy

 

[CES]

Dr. E got a manual krd8 (instead of the model used in the study), higher nic liquid, and tried it himself. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/72359-dr-eissenberg-got-kr808.html

here's the original thread about the study for your reading enjoyment- http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-news/69409-cnn-com-today.html

 

[jgdovin]

This may not be the most scientific research done, but it is an honest test. Our very own Bellatrist from vapewithpuff.com did a nicotine test with some nicotine testers on herself. You can view the results here:

Nicotine test @ vapewithpuff.com

Basically to sum it up, her outcome was she was getting just as much nicotine as she did when smoking analogs.

 

[Kate51]

Want some more study? This article full of links, lots to read.

Health New Zealand

 

[Droopy]

This may not be the most scientific research done, but it is an honest test. Our very own Bellatrist from vapewithpuff.com did a nicotine test with some nicotine testers on herself. You can view the results here:

Nicotine test @ vapewithpuff.com

Basically to sum it up, her outcome was she was getting just as much nicotine as she did when smoking analogs.

Thanks jgdovin. The Vapewithpuff test results page is a little confusing, without any background info at all, but I believe this person uses NicAlerts strips which, if I am not mistaken, are saliva-only testers (NicAlerts may have other testers though...).

Since that particular test only checks the amount of nic in saliva, and not the amount actually absorbed into the bloodstream, I would think that that test method might have limited utility with e-cigs (as opposed to analogues, which have different absorption characteristics).

My 2 cents,

-Droopy

 

[Droopy]

Want some more study? This article full of links, lots to read.

Thanks all. I sure wish someone in the science field would actually nail this thing down; it doesn't seem like it would take rocket science and millions of dollars to figure out either: 10 volunteers, some e-cigs, a few blood tests over time, and your friggin' done. Jeesh!!

Thanks Kate51 -- some really great stuff on Health New Zealand! I'll go over as much as I understand, but it looks like the average e-cig is generally pretty safe according to the Health New Zealand test results. (Now, if they could just answer that nagging question of blood nicotine absorption...).

Best,

-Droopy

 

[Kate51]

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary

This Forum is FULL of info regarding testing, as you'll note the New Zealand testing was done for "Ruyan,LLC,China" for a specific e-cig.
Make a list of the links, there is MUCH reading, and yes, there is tables on nic absorption.
Many of us have also done our own testing, I terrifically happy with mine!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/24062-home-test-nicotine-blood-levels.html

Many Articles published here:

http://www.casaa.org/

Many more articles published by our own Kristin, do an ECF search for more Threads from her and many others......research! It's here...more>

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing/2716-e-liquid-lab-toxicology-reports.html

And, you're right, an e-cig is about 4000 times safer than a tobacco cigarette.
Nicotine is a stimulant, re:constricts vascular system, however is also a 'depressant' of sorts, by helping the brain release dopamine (euphoric). It can be toxic, poisonous, deadly in large doses, i.e., 40-60mg nicotine can kill an adult healthy person.
Care should be used when handling, storing, or inhaling, keep safely away from pets and kids.

 

[Israfil]

I sure feel the nic hit, several people have experienced nicotine headaches if they vape too much, the fact that you can taste it proves that some of the juice in vapor form is sticking to your tongue and likely the inside of your mouth. Nicotine does absorb through the lining of a person's mouth, as proven by the effectiveness of nicotine gums as well as products like snuff and snus. Whether or not it is absorbed through the lungs I cannot say without further study, but I can say without a doubt that nicotine is being provided to the body through the lining of the mouth.

Don't worry, you're getting the nicotine one way or another.

 

[Kate51]

It is generally thought that 'lung hit' from vaping is almost non-existent, because the particles of nicotine in vapor is not as small as in smoke from combustion. So what we vape is absorbed primarily in mouth, nose and throat. This is also why we don't get an 'immediate' hit as with cigarette smoke in the lungs, the effects of nicotine usually takes a few minutes to be felt with vaping. By the time you feel the effect of 'over indulgence' it has already happened, as opposed to 'instantanious' through smoking.

 

[gashin]

Yep - within a couple days of my first e-cig (a 901) I got nicotine poisoning and almost threw up lol.

I sure feel the nic hit, several people have experienced nicotine headaches if they vape too much, the fact that you can taste it proves that some of the juice in vapor form is sticking to your tongue and likely the inside of your mouth. Nicotine does absorb through the lining of a person's mouth, as proven by the effectiveness of nicotine gums as well as products like snuff and snus. Whether or not it is absorbed through the lungs I cannot say without further study, but I can say without a doubt that nicotine is being provided to the body through the lining of the mouth.

Don't worry, you're getting the nicotine one way or another.

 

[martha1014]

I don't think I would have been able to quit cigarettes unless I was getting nicotine. I know how it feels to have withdrawals from nicotine. I also can tell when I get too much nicotine (nausea, headache, stomach cramps) As soon as I cut back on vaping these symptoms disappear.

 

[Slickstick]

I myself have read and said before (because I read it) that everclear can give throat hit to zero nic but upon trying it found it to be false. Perhaps SOME flavorings can help with throat hit since most have PG in them to begin with. Although I haven't found any that actually do (YET) as I do not vape zero nic expect when taste testing customers liquids before they go out.. There may be some, If there are, I haven't found any yet. As far as I can tell, so far, Nicotine itself is the only thing that will produce throat hit. The higher the strength, the stronger the hit. Think ultra light 100's vs. a red.

 

[Nepenthy]

My heart rate and throbbing head after a longer than needed vaping session disagrees with the no nicotine finding. Alternatively Ive tried 0 nic juice and it just does not do the trick for me, throat hit aside. It would be fantastic if Im getting less nic than smoking, but common sense tells me Im getting more, due to the fact I can vape wherever and whenever I want and the urge for an analog has completely disappeared, unless Im using 0 nic juice.

 

[kristin]

My heart rate and throbbing head after a longer than needed vaping session disagrees with the no nicotine finding. Alternatively Ive tried 0 nic juice and it just does not do the trick for me, throat hit aside. It would be fantastic if Im getting less nic than smoking, but common sense tells me Im getting more, due to the fact I can vape wherever and whenever I want and the urge for an analog has completely disappeared, unless Im using 0 nic juice.

You would think that, but your common sense would be under the assumption that propylene glycol delivers nicotine as effectively as cigarette smoke.

It doesn't.

Two studies have been done that show ecigs do not deliver nicotine as well as smoking. While the one by Dr. Eissenberg (Virginia Commonwealth) is seriously flawed, the study by Dr. Laugesen (Health New Zealand) is pretty sound, showing cigarettes delivered almost 10 fold compared to 16mg e-liquid: http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ecig_effect-2.pdf

As I pointed out in another thread that claimed we were becoming "more addicted" to nicotine with ecigs:

How do you become "more hooked (addicted)" to something? Either you're addicted or not.

If people could become more addicted to nicotine, you'd see every longtime smoker smoking 10 packs a day, when in reality, most people are around 1-2 packs at most or 20-40mg of nicotine.

A cigarette contains 10mg of nicotine. Research says we absorb about 1mg of that or 10%. 1mg X 20 cigarettes = 20mg a day.

Research says the nicotine in eliquid is absorbed even less, but let's take the same 10% ratio. If you're using 3ml of 24mg (per ml) liquid a day, 2.4mg X 3ml = 7.2mg a day.

You'd have to use 8.33ml a day to even reach the same levels as what is in a pack of cigarettes.

Look at the liquid strength and how much liquid are using per day, not how often the ecig is in your mouth.

I know I certainly don't use 8ml a day. I go through 4-5ml at the most, using 12mg liquid.

 

[Droopy]

It is generally thought that 'lung hit' from vaping is almost non-existent, because the particles of nicotine in vapor is not as small as in smoke from combustion. So what we vape is absorbed primarily in mouth, nose and throat. This is also why we don't get an 'immediate' hit as with cigarette smoke in the lungs, the effects of nicotine usually takes a few minutes to be felt with vaping. By the time you feel the effect of 'over indulgence' it has already happened, as opposed to 'instantanious' through smoking.

Thanks for all the info Kate51, and for the testing you have done on nic absorption! (Sorry for the idiots who appeared to be actually insulted/threatened/angry that anyone would even CARE how much nic we are getting while vaping, much less run tests on this important, and apparently, still not fully answered topic. On particular person that really chapped my hide with his intolerance was a person with a forum name that starts with Kre... ).

Sure wish someone would finally nail this one down though, so that I can, at least, vape and not excessively worry about too much nic absorption via the mucosa (but it's good to hear that lung absorption is probably negligible, which SHOULD mean that we are getting less nic in our systems than with analogues ).

Best,

-Droopy

PS: But looking at "http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ecig_effect-2.pdf", I see:

"The 16mg EC [E-Cig] delivered nicotine
more rapidly (mean tmax 19.4 minutes) than
Nicorette® inhalator (30 minutes) but not as rapidly
as cigarettes (14.3 min), which also gave the highest
cmax of nicotine (13.4 ng/ml), almost ten-fold that of
the 16mg EC (0.9 ng/ml)..."

Guys, doesn't this all mean that it is now finally nailed down, and that e-cigs have about 1/10ths of the nic absorption of regular cigs??? Or am I missing something?

.

 

[Kate51]

I'd say you have it pretty close, Droopy, but that's with a 16mg/ml strength juice. Note also that the measurement for the test is .9ng/ml. A nanogram is 1/1000 of a milligram. But yes the math works out to about 1/10 that of cigarettes.

I use 12mg, others more, I started out with 24mg being a heavy smoker, that gave me the most comfort. But cutting down was a huge surprise, I expected insatiable vaping and jitters, the whole bit, but there was nothing, no feeling at all of being deprived!! I went from 24mg to 18mg and then 12mg. No withdrawal.

And I have also tangled with those who wonder who cares about their nic, it's ridiculous, of course you want to know the facts. My whole purpose of going to the e-cig was to do no harm and for sure quit smoking cigarettes. All I want's a little nic without 4000 other chemicals in it.

 

[Droopy]

And I have also tangled with those who wonder who cares about their nic, it's ridiculous, of course you want to know the facts. My whole purpose of going to the e-cig was to do no harm and for sure quit smoking cigarettes. All I want's a little nic without 4000 other chemicals in it.

Kate, I think those same people who don't want to know about nic absorption into a person's body are similar to the people in the Dark Ages who didn't want to know that the earth was round, and that we are not the center of the Solar System!

I started e-cigs for a different reason than most folks here: I had quit real cigs 20 years ago, but they had given me so much enjoyment that I had never gotten over wanting them again -- and now it looks like I can have my cake and eat it too! (But I fully realize that nothing in life is 100% safe: my feeling is that if something isn't excessively dangerous -- like real cigs are -- then you might as well have some fun before Lights Out! ).

-Droopy

 

[David Bruno]

I've been vaping for 18 mos. I don't know REALLY how much nic I absorb. I can divide and do the numbers. I do know that I don't cough like I did during the 30 years I smoked. I was diagnosed with throat cancer in Dec
of 2009. I had sugury a week later and am fine now. The Dr asked if I smoke. I explained that I quit but do use the electronic cigg. I was expecting him to tell me to stop vaping, he didn't, but said that I shouldn't go near analogs again. My blood pressure is 5 times better than when I smoked. The Doc wasn't concerned about the qty of nic that I get from vaping. I feel good about that.

 

[DC2]

You need to look at some of the work done here by DVap and others.
They challenge the 10% results and believe we are getting more like 40% absorption rates.

And I think I believe them.