Legacy’s David Abrams acknowledges that e-cigs are “much less risky than cigarettes.” Has Legacy turned over a new leaf?

[Bill Godshall]

Legacy’s David Abrams acknowledges that e-cigs are “much less risky than cigarettes,” and that smokeless tobacco products “are also much less harmful than cigarettes.”
As e-cigarette use increases, experts investigate health risks — Brown Daily Herald

Brad Rodu: Legacy Tells the Truth – tobacco Harm Reduction Revolution Gains Momentum
http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2013/12/legacy-tells-truth-tobacco-harm.html

This could be very important development, as Legacy (along with CTFK, ACS, AHA, ALA, AAP) urge the FDA to ban e-cigs in 2009, and Legacy filed amici briefs in support of FDA (along with CTFK, ACS, AHA, ALA, AAP) and against SE/NJOY with the DC Court of Appeals in 2010.

And from 2011 until March of 2013, Abrams testified at many FDA TPSAC meetings (and at several FDA conferences/meetings) advocating unwarranted, excessive and very expensive research before any smokeless tobacco product could be allowed by the FDA to truthfully inform smokers that smokeless tobacco (and dissolvable tobacco) is less hazardous than cigarettes (via MRTP applications).

Interestingly, Legacy recently announced the departure of its first and only President/CEO Cheryl Healton. Not sure if its just Abrams, or if Legacy is also now moving towards supporting smokefree alternatives for smokers.

Several weeks ago, when I first heard Abrams' comments supporting e-cigs (at Bonnie Herzog's meeting in NYC), I suspected that he was looking for a new job with an e-cig company. But if Legacy is backing off on its opposition to THR, looks like ranks of e-cig prohibitionists and propagandists are shrinking (especially since Legacy has a lot more money than CTFK, ACS, AHA, ALA, AAP all combined, which get most of their money from Big Pharma).

 

[Orb Skewer]

"Build your enemy a golden bridge to retreat across"

The Rats are jumping ship !

 

[AgentAnia]

Could this be related in any way to the recent scandal surrounding Legacy's misuse of funds (perhaps I should say mismanagement?) and now employees are no longer afraid to speak out?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...5a82ca-0c26-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html

 

[rothenbj]

Gee, I wonder who took over Cheryl Healton's estimated $750k salary? Legacy has had it's problems-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...5a82ca-0c26-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html

The wonderful world of the ?non-profit?"health" associations.

Hopefully they're working their way back to some honesty on the war on cigarettes.

 

[Uma]

I like this thread. Encore!
Maybe the IRS is starting to investigate eh? We can always hope...

 

[Steamix]

Maybe it's just the tip of the iceberg. Only those too dumb or to brazen to cover their financial tracks get reported. Who knows how much money disappears through smarter schemes...

Non-profit-organizations is right.

The needy do not profit from their activities...

 

[AgentAnia]

Feel like I kinda highjacked Bill's thread. Sorry!

Maybe we should concentrate on the fact that a Legacy spokesman has uttered ANTZ heresy. A crack in the ANTZ foundation? May we hope for more such cracks, until the foundation crumbles? Or is this another ANTZ ploy? Or was Healton the driving ANTZ force and now that she's gone, her forces are deserting?

Must say, I'm surprised at how positive his comments are:

“While we don’t really know the long-term impact of inhalation, logic would suggest and some preliminary studies would suggest that it’s going to be less harmful than combusted tobacco in any form, mainly cigarettes or hookah,” Abrams said.

He added that there is almost no secondhand smoke from e-cigarettes, making them much safer for non-smokers.....

Because of the lack of long-term research on e-cigarettes, Abrams cautioned against aggressively regulating them.

He said he believes no product “containing nicotine in any form should be sold to kids under 18, and we should strictly enforce restrictions to minors in all places, like convenience stores and over the Internet.” But he added that he has mixed feelings on the regulation of e-cigarettes in public places.

“Given that I don’t think the data show that they have a whole lot of particulate matter in the air, there may not be a legal reason for banning them,” he said.

Because the number of carcinogenic substances can vary with the quality of the product, Abrams said he sees the situation as “more an issue of product regulation and quality control than heavily restricting them.”

If this represents a shift in Legacy's position, I'll vape to that!

 

[rothenbj]

Feel like I kinda highjacked Bill's thread. Sorry!

Maybe we should concentrate on the fact that a Legacy spokesman has uttered ANTZ heresy. A crack in the ANTZ foundation? May we hope for more such cracks, until the foundation crumbles? Or is this another ANTZ ploy? Or was Healton the driving ANTZ force and now that she's gone, her forces are deserting?

Must say, I'm surprised at how positive his comments are:



If this represents a shift in Legacy's position, I'll vape to that!

Well one thought I have is about ASH USA. Once John Banzass retired, they got very church mouse like.

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

Or could it be that there is enough evidence coming out that harm reduction will save lives that they can't ignore it without looking totally as stupid as they have been acting since 2009? Every time one of the BS articles hits the comments seem to be 90%+ positive with vapors telling their story or linking studies that totally wreck the BS.

We might just be getting through to some of them.

 

[tommy2bad]

I fear it another move in what is now obviously a global campaign against ecigs. Yesterday the EU passed a set of regs that will calcifie ecigs into two forms and restrict their presence in the market place. Now that a precedence had been set, the antz can move on to what was always their end goal. Knowing that the geni could not be put back in the bottle, they settled for crippling the product by slowing down market access, ending promotion of ecigs and having them sold only as a sort of palative care for chronic sad loosers, sorry, smokers.

Legacy are now in stage two of the battle to reach this end.

Or it could be the evidence is overwhelmingly against the lie that ecigs are as bad as smoking and they feel the undermine denormalization argument is suficent. I'm in a cynical mood after the EU TPD debacle.

 

[rothenbj]

Or could it be that there is enough evidence coming out that harm reduction will save lives that they can't ignore it without looking totally as stupid as they have been acting since 2009? Every time one of the BS articles hits the comments seem to be 90%+ positive with vapors telling their story or linking studies that totally wreck the BS.

We might just be getting through to some of them.

Kind of reminds me of the Revolutionary War. The ANTZ have the money and the well trained, organized militia that organize their attacks and bring all the previous knowledge of combat to each battle. Then they get ambushed by a bunch of citizens whose biggest asset is their belief that their cause is right.

Many of the most dedicated among us have spent years trying to overcome our habits while being denormalized by our "enemies" and using their recommendations to accomplish what they said they wanted us to accomplish. Those solutions didn't work. You could be right. One by one, as the evidence slowly falls in our favor and as they realize they're not dealing with the sheep anymore, the rats just might start bailing. At least we can hope. Of course, NYC's decision is today and that's one major battle that we don't appear to be winning.

 

[AgentAnia]

Perhaps we're all right, each in his/her own way. It occurs to me, reading the various replies, that we need to remember, tempting though it is to lump all ANTZ in the same antzhill, that there are differences within that conglomeration of fanatics and puritans. Differences of dogma, tactics, and strategy.

I see it as hopeful that some rats are indeed jumping ship (whether they've seen the light or are simply looking for cheese elsewhere remains to be seen), but I'm also enough of a cynic that I will never trust a one of them again, no matter what they say or how they seem to have come around to THR. I may give them a metaphorical pat on the head in public, offer them a bit of metaphorical nicotine-infused cheese as a reward, but I will never let down my guard...

 

[AgentAnia]

Kind of reminds me of the Revolutionary War. The ANTZ have the money and the well trained, organized militia that organize their attacks and bring all the previous knowledge of combat to each battle. Then they get ambushed by a bunch of citizens whose biggest asset is their belief that their cause is right.

..... .....

 

[Spazmelda]

"Build your enemy a golden bridge to retreat across"

This saying really struck me. Is there any way would could build them a golden bridge? Admitting you are wrong is extremely difficult for some people, so much so that they will cling to idiotic beliefs in the face of massive evidence to the contrary. What could give them a golden face saving bridge? Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Traver]

Perhaps running around in circles screaming we don't know, we don't any know, we don't know anything, is beginning to lose it's charm.

I think they have lost this battle with the public and I hope to see more of these organizations to take a more neutral ground.

 

[Orb Skewer]

This saying really struck me. Is there any way would could build them a golden bridge? Admitting you are wrong is extremely difficult for some people, so much so that they will cling to idiotic beliefs in the face of massive evidence to the contrary. What could give them a golden face saving bridge? Just thinking out loud here.

I know what I'd like to give them -but it would be unprintable in here:

Seriously though, we don't have to offer them anything, we have the moral high ground and the truth-that alone is irresistable-to even the most ardent deniers-.....eventualy,
they are clinging onto lies and the threat of career suicide.

That quote I used was from Chinese master war strategist Sun Tzu.

I had a synapse fire that particular quote into my head a little while back- after reading a blog
-and the credit for it goes to none other than Carl V Phillips, after reading it I immediately 'got' what he was saying-but didn't comment on it at the time. The blog post was the "Truth and reconciliation" posting.
Well worth a second reading IMHO
Big Lies and Reconciliation | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

 

[Uma]

I heart BJ's theory the most. But, being the new connect the dotter that I am, I can't keep from connecting the ANTZ sudden "honest" explanation to the IRS about the millions of missing dollars across the board, with this sudden "about face". Who us, Lobby? Why, no Occifer, we'd never do that! We support the safer alternatives. See this news clipping. We'd never lobby. How could we anyway? Our extra funds were stolen, embezzled, ... it takes a lot of money to lobby.. the press has to be paid, the shills need their palms greased... What's that you say? Oh, no, no, no, we have no idea how lobbying is done in IRL, I was just imagining...

 

[AgentAnia]

Perhaps running around in circles screaming we just don't know, we just don't any know, we just don't know anything, is beginning to lose it's charm.

I think they have lost this battle with the public and I hope to see more of these organizations to take a more neutral ground.

There, fixed that for ya...

 

[AgentAnia]

Wasn't sure whether to post this or not, but finally... what the heck.

With respect to Sun Tzu and the Good Doctor: If I see ANTZ being offered a golden bridge and allowed to make a dignified retreat, I'll blow up that damn bridge and tell them to swim, wearing heavy packs laden with all the lies and obfuscations they've uttered over the years. And then I'd have my troops start target practice.

I used to be kind, and pretty mellow. Now I'm just angry.

 

[Orb Skewer]

Wasn't sure whether to post this or not, but finally... what the heck.

With respect to Sun Tzu and the Good Doctor: If I see ANTZ being offered a golden bridge and allowed to make a dignified retreat, I'll blow up that damn bridge and tell them to swim, wearing heavy packs laden with all the lies and obfuscations they've uttered over the years. And then I'd have my troops start target practice.

I used to be kind, and pretty mellow. Now I'm just angry.

I hear ya Ania, and are with you on drowning the (insert very bad words here), but take consolation in this:-

A golden bridge may lead them to a safe haven, but for how long ?
Their deeds will revisit them.