lets talk oxidization.

[zoiDman]

Post Removed per OP's request

I do not believe this is Correct.

The Chromium interferers with the formation of Iron Oxides. There will be Almost No Iron Oxides on the Surface Boundary. This is the Purpose of putting Chromium in Stainless Steel.

Also, something that it worth noting. At .08% Carbon, a Steel Alloy can Not be either Hardened or Annealed. The hardness it has once Solidified can Not be Changed via Heat Treating with Quenching.

 

[ninfreak]

i love all you people that overthink this crap..... been using ss wicks for well over half a year and i don't quench, i cut that step out of the equation long ago, it isn't needed, and actually degrades the life of your wick. ive been doing frost method for a long time. torch while unrolled, roll up, torch rolled wick again, shove in the tank. it is that simple folks. stop overthinking very simple things!!!!! i don't have short issues, wicking issues, or any other issues(my favorite is nasty black gunk from an over oxidized wick). ive done it all and this is where it led me, simple is usually better!

 

[Boden]

I do not believe this is Correct.

The Chromium interferers with the formation of Iron Oxides. There will be Almost No Iron Oxides on the Surface Boundary. This is the Purpose of putting Chromium in Stainless Steel.

source: What exactly is the Heat Stain on Stainless?

"At elevated temperature, the metal comprising the stainless steel will combine with oxygen to form an oxide layer on the metal surface. The color of the "stain" is a function of the layer thickness. Oxidation of stainless steel indicates that the metal temperature at the oxidized surface was in excess of 1000F." Larry Hanke, Materials testing laboratory, Minneapolis, Minnesota

Most of the responses on that site are amateurs guessing but there are some good answers mixed in. Finding accurate information on the web is very difficult as we all know.

Also, something that it worth noting. At .08% Carbon, a Steel Alloy can Not be either Hardened or Annealed. The hardness it has once Solidified can Not be Changed via Heat Treating with Quenching.

True, you cannot harden SS and Grade 304 stainless steel is practically immune to sigma phase formation, Others are not and will become more brittle. I don't think going into grade specific sigma phase transitions is necessary for this discussion.

You can Anneal cold worked SS to relieve stresses.

 

[Boden]

i love all you people that overthink this crap..... been using ss wicks for well over half a year and i don't quench, i cut that step out of the equation long ago, it isn't needed, and actually degrades the life of your wick. ive been doing frost method for a long time. torch while unrolled, roll up, torch rolled wick again, shove in the tank. it is that simple folks. stop overthinking very simple things!!!!! i don't have short issues, wicking issues, or any other issues(my favorite is nasty black gunk from an over oxidized wick). ive done it all and this is where it led me, simple is usually better!

Well said, I agree completely.

 

[zoiDman]

source: What exactly is the Heat Stain on Stainless?

"At elevated temperature, the metal comprising the stainless steel will combine with oxygen to form an oxide layer on the metal surface. The color of the "stain" is a function of the layer thickness. Oxidation of stainless steel indicates that the metal temperature at the oxidized surface was in excess of 1000F." Larry Hanke, Materials testing laboratory, Minneapolis, Minnesota

Most of the responses on that thread are amateurs guessing but there are some good answers mixed in. Finding accurate information on the web is very difficult as we all know.



True, you cannot harden SS and Grade 304 stainless steel is practically immune to sigma phase formation, Others are not and will become more brittle. I don't think going into grade specific sigma phase transitions is necessary for this discussion.

You can Anneal cold worked SS to relieve stresses.

No, discussing Precipitates or Body Centric Structures in this thread might not be all that Productive.

My brief note about .08% Carbon in Alloyed Steels is something that is sometimes Overlooked with regards to Heat Treating / Quenching. Or what the Role of .08% Carbon Steel Alloys is.

I'll have to do some more reading regarding formation of Iron Oxides at the Surface Boundary of Stainless Steels. I haven't seen much of this if the Stainless has a "Clean" surface.

 

[zoiDman]

i love all you people that overthink this crap..... been using ss wicks for well over half a year and i don't quench, i cut that step out of the equation long ago, it isn't needed, and actually degrades the life of your wick. ive been doing frost method for a long time. torch while unrolled, roll up, torch rolled wick again, shove in the tank. it is that simple folks. stop overthinking very simple things!!!!! i don't have short issues, wicking issues, or any other issues(my favorite is nasty black gunk from an over oxidized wick). ive done it all and this is where it led me, simple is usually better!

Being able to do Something and Understanding what is going On can be Two Separate Pursuits.

I have Absolutely no desire to use SS Wicks or make my own Atomizer Wires. But I am the type of Person who likes to Understand things at a Fundamental Level.

 

[Boden]

No, discussing Precipitates or Body Centric Structures in this thread might not be all that Productive.

My brief note about .08% Carbon in Alloyed Steels is something that is sometimes Overlooked with regards to Heat Treating / Quenching. Or what the Role of .08% Carbon Steel Alloys is.

I'll have to do some more reading regarding formation of Iron Oxides at the Surface Boundary of Stainless Steels. I haven't seen much of this if the Stainless has a "Clean" surface.

Fair enough, Back to the topic at hand.

 

[zoiDman]

View attachment 142889

Fair enough, Back to the topic at hand.

No White Flag Needed.

In fact, your Posts have given me much to think about.

 

[ricklynchcore]

Being able to do Something and Understanding what is going On can be Two Separate Pursuits.

I have Absolutely no desire to use SS Wicks or make my own Atomizer Wires. But I am the type of Person who likes to Understand things at a Fundamental Level.

I can't understand your statement. If you have no desire to vape on a system that in my opinion creates the most satisfying vape, and I think the healthiest method to avoid sharding of silicates, then why are you so intensely interested at all? Just scientific clarity? Oh well, I guess that is a valid reason. Me, I just care about what creates the healthier method, while satisfying my nic needs, in a very cost effective manner. Grab a torch, grey out the mesh, wire a coil, vape nirvana, good enough for me. I don't need a weather vane to know which way the wind blows.

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2

 

[zoiDman]

I can't understand your statement. If you have no desire to vape on a system that in my opinion creates the most satisfying vape, and I think the healthiest method to avoid sharding of silicates, then why are you so intensely interested at all? Just scientific clarity? Oh well, I guess that is a valid reason. Me, I just care about what creates the healthier method, while satisfying my nic needs, in a very cost effective manner. Grab a torch, grey out the mesh, wire a coil, vape nirvana, good enough for me. I don't need a weather vane to know which way the wind blows.

...

Like I said.

You don't have to understand why something works to use it and be Happy with it.

For me, Scientific Clarity, is not a bad way to phrase it. I like to Understand how things work whether I use something or not.

 

[Boden]

Idea:
1. Use a drill bit in place of the wick to make the coil.
2. Make a oxidized SS wick that is the same size as the drillbit with cig paper wrapped around the section of the wick that will come in contact with the coil (to avoid abrasion).
3. Slide the wick into place.
4. Then dry burn the paper away.

You only need to oxidize the part of the wick that will come in contact with the coil. I've found that Oxidizing the whole wick also oxidizes my juice, "aging" it really fast.

I guess if you wanted to age juice really fast you could put a lump of oxidized SS in the bottle... another topic, another time

 

[Lance_Wallen]

Great discussion so far.

I'm still a little curious about the iron oxides vs mineral deposits thing. I did some more research on the topic and some other things for black oxides (fe3o4) are non caustic gun blueing...

In the process of creating black oxides on steel for gun blueing it says it's a careful process of heating and boiling... this might be what's happening with the torch and quench method as well as the 'burning off juice' process.

I've watched a lot of videos of people torching their wicks and noticed osme people go grey/black others have a brownish tint... I do believe the brownish tinted wicks are actually fe2o3 or regular ol iron oxide.

further reading brings me to Category III Rouge... or magnetite. Which commonly forms on stainless steel pure water systems that operate at high temperatures, it appears black and is formed when SS is exposed to high temperature steam.... This part is what brings me to a really interesting idea. If magnetite is the 'goal' here and it routinely occurs in high temperature steam applications, maybe I can steam my wicks I'm reading further about the process but the majority of resources I can find are on 'how to prevent' and 'how to repair' as opposed to 'how to cause' since it's considered a negative thing by anyone but us crazy freaks

Again, great conversation.


P.S. to the feller who is confused by why we over think things... if some one hadn't over thought this, you wouldn't have a Genesis style atomizer to use in the first place. If you're more of a doer and less of a thinker, good on ya, the world needs all types.

 

[Lance_Wallen]

oh, another note for the Zoid man...

The reason the iron oxides are forming under high temperatures instead of 'more' chromium oxides and the reason that this is NOT passivating is because of the temperature differentials in the various components. Like when you get discoloration during welding stainless, it re-arranges the crystalline structure of the SS and creates an area of low chromium where the iron can oxidize faster than the chromium content can create it's barrier. (read this, didn't know it before like... 5 minutes ago, so don't assume I'm smart or anything.)

 

[Lance_Wallen]

sorry, spammy...

Rather than 'steaming' my stainless steel, I'm going to dry to boil it dry. as in, put it in a pan slightly submerged in water and boil the water completely away and see what happens to the mesh. I don't know that it'll reach a sufficient temperature or that any steam generators I have access too can get it to a sufficient temperature but I'm sure as hell gonna try

If forcing a class III rouge is all we're doing, then doing it in a more controlled way than raw heat will create a more stable scale which might ultimately reduce it's brittleness and make the wicks more durable... if it can be controlled to the extent of doing a 'partial' wick then it might enable us to just rouge the coil portion of the wick and leave the juice portion "clean"

 

[Lance_Wallen]

oh hooo, more info.

I already knew this but I just put two and two together.... a byproduct of burning butane (most common torch ligher fuel) is water (i.e. steam at that temperature)

That reinforces the class III rouging thing and gives me ideas. I'm thinking of starting with wet mesh before the torch.

 

[Boden]

Nice research! Any of the iron oxides will work. "rust" is actually better than Fe3O4 at resisting electricity (lower conductivity), although it is more brittle and will stain your juice. I really like your idea about boiling. Not sure it will get hot enough. The steam environment in which Iron oxidizes into Fe3O4 would be superheated, Ie. Very dangerous!!!

 

[Boden]

oh hooo, more info.

I already knew this but I just put two and two together.... a byproduct of burning butane (most common torch ligher fuel) is water (i.e. steam at that temperature)

That reinforces the class III rouging thing and gives me ideas. I'm thinking of starting with wet mesh before the torch.

Do you have a adjustable torch? The air / fuel mix is important.

 

[Lance_Wallen]

yeah, I just screwed up all my thoughts with some testing.

I cut 4 squares of 400 SS mesh, each one roughly the same size. Rolled them into a tight, no hole wick shape.

Square 1. Unmolested, Resistance from end to end = 1.0 ohm

Square 2. Torched, quenched, 3 times per the 'norm' you see on youtube videos. Resistance from end to end = Inconsistant. As I rolled the wick it went from ~1.0 ohm to >200ohm, most spots as I moved around read between 1-19ohm with occaisional 'jumps' to >200.

Square 3. Torched before rolling, torched again after rolling 3 times and air cooled. Same results as Square 2 for all intents and purposes.

Square 4. Rolled, soaked in juice, light on fire. Repeat. Resistance between any two points was greater than 200 ohm or "OL" for my multimeter. i.e. it had the best resistance just from soaking it in some juice and lighting it on fire twice.

To me, this means... screw torching, just juice it and burn it down twice and you're done.

Just for giggles, I took Sq. 4 and molested it. I unrolled it completely, rerolled it, tight rolled it then tested the resistance again. It did drop significantly... It's bouncing in the 40-50 range along the full length of the wick with 'some' jumps up to >200 or OL. I also checked the resistance in a very short distance by putting the probes of my MM within ~1cm of each other. Before molestation I was reading in the 100-150 range post molestation it dropped to ~20. I soaked it once and torched it again. All resistances are back through the roof. 200+ or OL even at the 1 cm distance.

 

[Boden]

I need to find out what is left behind when you burn juice before I do it. I suspect it's a sugar but it could include some nasty stuff.

After some research, I don't like the idea.

But!!! it gave me an idea. Take the SS wick and dip it into a simple sugar syrup solution then heat it with a torch, not to combustion but to coat the wick in thin caramel.

 

[Lance_Wallen]

I dunno why you' be worried about whats left behind, any heat activated deposits are going in your lungs already

All that said, I just tried to make another coil/wick set up on my DUD and it's still a freakin failure for me. I'm using 36awg nichrome which might be part of my problem. I've got some 32 and 28 kanthal coming in the mail tomorrow.