Liquid delivery... Why wicks? Pumps?

[footbag]

So I haven't been around in a while and I've been checking out the new tech. I see the VV's have become some of the most recommended. Something like this may already exist. If it does, let me know because I want one.

I've been thinking about this for a few days. The new VV PV's are putting a lot of effort and expense into controlling the heat production. By changing the voltages, you can change the vapor production. The problem with this is that when you adjust the voltage, wicks don't draw more liquid in. So you are just using a different temperature. I would have to assume that like water at 212F, vapor vaporizes at a specified temperature.

Why don't we see regulated micro dosing pumps in e-cigs? Surely this can be done for less then a VVV. It seems to me that increasing or decreasing the liquid would be a better way to regulate vapor production and flavor. I mean, that's exactly what the drippers are doing manually.

As it is now, the wicks, just wick the liquid. So if you take a few puffs, you rely on the wick to keep up with your vaping. But the wick is a "dumb" technology. It cannot be regulated.

Now, if you were to one way pressure seal the tank on the carto, atty, etc... And then place a material that expands predictably with heat inside of it. Then the heat would actually push the liquid onto the atty. Liquid delivery could then be adjusted by changing the thermal expansiveness of the material, OR by regulating the heat delivered to that material. That would be a basic technology. Otherwise a true micro regulated dosing pump would work, but would require a microchip for regulation. Either of these seem like good ideas.

Since I began vaping, I've always hated wicks, poly, etc. I'd be a dripper if I could do it in the car, or at work, or just without getting my hands sticky.

Your thoughts?

 

[Penn]

You mean like fuel injection in a modern automotive engine? Interesting but it would make it bigger. Some of us want smaller but more effective.

 

[DoogieTony]

You might want to check out REO mods.

 

[Smokachino]

That's funny . . . I was just thinking about this yesterday after realizing how much time I'm spending fiddling with wicks and coils. If the FDA doesn't get in the way, surely there will be a superior delivery system in the future? I'm sure cost effectiveness will play a role, though, and wick and coil material is really cheap.

 

[Fizzpop]

Simple, unregulated, and analog is also cheap and reliable.

 

[Baditude]

The biggest improvements in the world of vaping have been in the category of delivery attachments, and will continue to be. They have come a LONG way in the 16 months that I've been vaping, and I'm certain they will do the same over that time period in the future.

I've had the same idea of something like fuel injection yet utilized for our purposes with e-liquid. As someone pointed out, size would be an issue initially. The trend seems to be going to smaller devices rather than larger, but that could change with a drastic improvement from an innovative device that greatly improves the vaping experience.

The e-cig market is wide open now to innovative technology. If you have an idea, find someone who can make it. Perfect it. Market it. WIN.

 

[footbag]

I don't see size as a problem. There are dosing pumps that would fit withing an E-cig. And they are regulated way beyond what an e-cig would require.

But the execution would be up to someone else. As for prototype production, due to Chinese ethics, there would be no way to ensure it doesn't get copied. The opportunity wouldn't last long as it would likely be ripped off before it even hit the market. I know a lot of people who do business in China. They have all been ripped off. Many bring their production back to the US and the Chinese still rip off the ideas.

Domestic prototyping would likely be too expensive. And that is if you could find someone capable and willing. If we were talking hundred dollar devices, it may be possible, but I think the devices would have to cost under $10 to produce to be viable.

 

[Baditude]

I don't see size as a problem. There are dosing pumps that would fit withing an E-cig. And they are regulated way beyond what an e-cig would require.

But the execution would be up to someone else. As for prototype production, due to Chinese ethics, there would be no way to ensure it doesn't get copied. The opportunity wouldn't last long as it would likely be ripped off before it even hit the market. I know a lot of people who do business in China. They have all been ripped off. Many bring their production back to the US and the Chinese still rip off the ideas.

Domestic prototyping would likely be too expensive. And that is if you could find someone capable and willing. If we were talking hundred dollar devices, it may be possible, but I think the devices would have to cost under $10 to produce to be viable.

"Build it and they will come (buy it)"

It wouldn't need to be so inexpensive to sell if its a quality product. Protanks are being sold for $20 with elementary technology. RBA's are being sold for up to $150 or more with similar technology. Granted, we are talking about costs to design and manufacture something new, but you state the dosing pumps technology is already available, it would just need to be adapted to our purposes.

There's a large number of vapors who dislike giving money to Chinese manufacturers, and would prefer paying top dollar to US made manufacturers, as long as the product is quality.

There's no way around the Chinese issue of using reverse technology and making clones on the cheap. That's been a part of the e-cig business since it began.

 

[Leithan]

I have been thinking alot along the same lines, "A Juice Injected" atty would be awsome. I don't think you would eliminate or replace VV/VW as this is just one part of the eqasion. A force fed juice system would go along ways in eliminating wicking issues as well as flooding and other issues. I think the footprint could be kept small. Somthing like a presurzed tank that introduses a regulated supply of juice to the coil. Reos come close but the have a learning curve and still rely on some sort of wicking material. I think a tank you could pressurize with some sort of needle valve to regulate flow could be achieved in a package near the size of a Kayfun 3.1ES. The hard part would be keeping it simple and the controlled introduction of the juice. You would want it to feed the juice when you activate the mod all in one step, not have to "squonk" then activate the coil, otherwise your just reinventing the Reo. I mean how cool would it be to be able to set and forget your coil temp (which we can already do) as well as how rich or lean we want our juice supply, all with the convenience we now get from a VV/VW device? If I could have that, I think it would easily justify a larger mod.

 

[Thrasher]

I think a tank you could pressurize with some sort of needle valve to regulate flow could be achieved in a package near the size of a Kayfun 3.1ES.

in all actuality, how is something like the the kayfun NOT a version of what you are talking about?

I build my coil to my preferred resistance, i set my voltage to my preferred temperature, and the tank autofeeds the wick. spill proof ad no automation or source of power or pressure needed.
you can even buy extensions and make it hold 15 ml or more.

while there may be a finite range in which the actual vapor is produced effectively. so many variables come into play. the type of coil, the resistance, thickness of the wire, reaction time of said wire, accuracy of the device producing voltage etc.
the actual mix % of pg/vg/nic ratios and all of this affects the experience from one device to another.

Right now the current trend as with the kayfun. is to try and automate the delivery system to be maintenance free while being reliable and accurate.
it is about the easiest device to rebuild, and finetuning the wick gives it the ability to be one of the best devices currently available for vapor production and nicotine delivery.

in a system as describes, now we have more parts, more maintenance and more disposables. do you make said pump run off the battery voltage? thus reducing my battery life even further then the regulation circuit already does? or do I now need to add pressurized canisters or co2 packs to my list of disposable devices to toss in the trash raising usage costs already while locking me into a supply and demand state with a certain manufacturer, what if said canisters are currently sold out? then my device is useless.

i have heard mention of ideas like this in the past and they just seem to be counter productive to the current devices now being introduced. stuff like the kayfun and ithaka are set it and forget it devices.

 

[Penn]

I don't see size as a problem. There are dosing pumps that would fit withing an E-cig. And they are regulated way beyond what an e-cig would require.

Tell me more about these dosing pumps. Voltage requirements? Size of electronics to regulate all three elements of vaping or regulate two of those elements while sensing the third? I did a search and spent all of two minutes looking and all I saw was stuff larger than an ego requiring 6 volts for saltwater aquariums.

ETA - Keep in mind I was taking the original post as an altered fuel injection type system which requires automatic adjustments for the three elements of airflow, voltage to coil or other heat adjustment, and amount of liquid being fed.

 

[Leithan]

in all actuality, how is something like the the kayfun NOT a version of what you are talking about?

I build my coil to my preferred resistance, i set my voltage to my preferred temperature, and the tank autofeeds the wick. spill proof ad no automation or source of power or pressure needed.
you can even buy extensions and make it hold 15 ml or more.

No your right, but to get my Kayfuns to the point that they are "set and forget" has taken some work. The Kayfun is a very forgiving device but it has still been a proses to get them working just right. I live in the high desert, very hot and high in altitude, it has taken a balance of coil, wick, feeding and juice viscosity (PG/VG ratio) to get them working reliably and consistently. Not any fault of the device but the environment I live in. A device that I could just go into a menu and adjust some of those perimeters would just make life so much easier. As it is now, pretty much any juice that has a higher than 40% PG ratio, I have to either Drip or only vape in the house. The out side temp thins the juice out so much that even a 50/50 mix leaks and gurgals. The ability to go into a menu and just change my feed to compensate for the mix like I do for the voltage would be convenient.

 

[Thrasher]

The ability to go into a menu and just change my feed to compensate for the mix like I do for the voltage would be convenient.

then try an ithaka, penelope or odesyus. same basic idea as a kayfun with a juice flow control built in. dial in the perfect juice flow and off you go.

as you delve deeper into the more sophisticated devices much of what your asking for is already being accomplished using manual methods.

 

[Leithan]

then try an ithaka, penelope or odesyus. same basic idea as a kayfun with a juice control built in. dial in the perfect juice flow and off you go.

I have a handful of Term Cs and after seeing one of your pics a few weeks ago an Ithaka. The control on them does work too an extent. It's slow to compensate and doesn't seem to help any with changes of altitude, your not really controlling the volume of juice being delivered, just the amount of wick exposed. It's still relying on the wick to control and regulate the juice. I think the Kayfun 3.1ES does a better job with the juice control coupled to the draw. Admittedly I only have a few weeks on the Ithaka and I'm still playing with it. I think the big advantage of having it automatically controlled, is if it could sense how much juice was being fed and automatically adjust to keep it to a pre-set amount. I'm not going to hold my breath on seeing something like this anytime soon or that it's even possible. The current devices are fantastic, I'm not complaining.

 

[Thrasher]

I'm not complaining

lol and i dont mean present myself as argumentative, i just always try to play the other side for discussion purposes, after all debate forms ideas.

and yea the wick does control to a point how the juice is delivered but with all things working as they should a wet wick will just work. if it's not then the actual coil and wick building technique should come under questioning. not the device delivering the juice.

here in fla temp's easily pop the 100F mark and my solution was just build a fatter wick in the kayfun. by actually stuffing more wick in the delivery port area flooding and over wicking has stopped. and once again its a case of tuning the device to the use.
watching the video of the Svoe guys building a kayfun we forget he is building his wicks for an area that is permanently snowed in lol and for all we know he's running 100% pg.

while the device you describe sounds intriging, i do think adding more strain on out little batteries and more moving parts, also adds more maintenance (jets will clog, tanks will fail etc), and we are actually moving away from these ideas.

still if you have the ability or means i would rough sketch it up and post it in the modding forum, you might be surprised what some in this community are capable of.

 

[footbag]

Tell me more about these dosing pumps. Voltage requirements? Size of electronics to regulate all three elements of vaping or regulate two of those elements while sensing the third? I did a search and spent all of two minutes looking and all I saw was stuff larger than an ego requiring 6 volts for saltwater aquariums.

ETA - Keep in mind I was taking the original post as an altered fuel injection type system which requires automatic adjustments for the three elements of airflow, voltage to coil or other heat adjustment, and amount of liquid being fed.

I'm thinking more like a printer head or even a 3d printer head. Power requirements could make it tough which is why I first suggested using thermal expansion instead of a motor. This would create a solid state style pump. All you would have to do is deliver or regulate the heat that reaches it.

For a powered dosing pump...
Micro annular gear pump mzr-2921

It seems like all of the powered pumps are extremely precise. I don't think we need that precision.

 

[Butters78]

 

[Leithan]

here in fla temp's easily pop the 100F mark and my solution was just build a fatter wick in the kayfun. by actually stuffing more wick in the delivery port area flooding and over wicking has stopped. and once again its a case of tuning the device to the use.
watching the video of the Svoe guys building a kayfun we forget he is building his wicks for an area that is permanently snowed in lol and for all we know he's running 100% pg.

That's exactly how I regulate juice flow now, I like cotton because it's easy to adjust the wicks density to control feed. I make my wicks so the coil chokes the wick ever so slightly, too much juice at the coil and I have to up the volts to get it hot, to little and burn. The fatter wick out side the coil has more "soak up" ability. So it captures more juice and keeps it from going down the air hole. I think PVs still have a lot of potential and I think what we are seeing now is just scratching the surface.

 

[RickAppling]

The patent for the first e-cig covered the use of piezo and peristaltic pumps

Patent

 

[candimccann]

The closest thing I have seen is the NotCigs VVPV VVPV ( includes batts + charger ) - notcigs.com
It's a juice feeder mod that pumps the liquid through a tube and top-feeds the atty when you press a button. If I remember correctly, you can adjust how many drops you get when you press the button.