Lock out your Kids !!!

[Trumpybloke]

Funnily enough this idea came to me in the shower just now ( and there's an image that will put you off your corn flakes ladies !!! )

As most of the regular forumer's will know ( and yes I just created the word forumer's ) My brain has been going 700 billion miles an hour over the ban of e-cigs in Australia...

Any way there I was soaping my good bits ( OK I promise it wont get grosser than that !!!) and cogitatiing as one does,
Part of the problem regarding our pastime is the fact it involves quantities of a very nasty chemical, i.e. nicotine.
I am sure the naysayers and do-gooders in power, will have used this in their arguments against the use of such devices, " But Minister , in his hand lies the power to kill ( and possibly eat!!! ) 250 babies !!! "
And sadly , this is in fact true... we all do , some of us might have enough stored at home that would knock off half a city lol

So I was cogitating ( and soaping .. last reference I promise) upon this and decided I was going to make an effort to secure my supplies ( at the moment they are in the top shelf butter compartment of my fridge)
This makes sense , and also at some level demonstrates the degree of responsibility that the Govt feels that we as citizens DON'T have....

I dont know about you , but my house often has neighbours kids, dogs, hell even a sheep or two in it . All of whom have access to the fridge ( ok well maybe not the sheep , but if they ever learn thats where I keep the lettuce and carrots I will be buggered)
So decision time... I am on a VERY limited income, thats part of why I came to find e-cigs, but I feel it imperative I invest in a small electronic safe or similar... I know many of you will say well whack it in a box with a padlock on , and I could lol, but bear with me here.... By using something such as these safes, I am applying the same logic our Govt applies to firearms ... ok to have them , but they must be secured in a gun cabinet at all times they are not in use ( one of the few times I wished I was a shooter , then I would have a gun cabinet to lock all my supplies in lol )
This small safe would supply the correct environment for our refill kits , cool dark,dry... and by its nature very secure...

In fact if a condition of us getting our rights to vape back was that all gear must be stored in a safe , I would agree !!!

So looks like i'm safe shopping ( i seem to remember they are around $50 or so ) and thats pretty cheap insurance , and perhaps demonstrates to the PC crowd, I have thought about this ?

Whaddya reckon?????

 

[Frankie]

If you have kids in the house it is just a very reasonable precaution, government ban or not. And if you use combination lock, no problems with the key either. But it should be a very small safe indeed, something like my steel locked anti-kid cash box, because temperatures in your country get to 36°C, so they can easily destroy the nic, right? So you have to place the whole thing in a fridge. Or not? I am not sure. I just have that impression of kangaroos and a very hot climate

 

[Trumpybloke]

lol Yep Frankie --- the kind of safe I was referring to is electronic and small enough to fit in the fridge ... heck look , I even found one thats PINK !!!
Safe Electronic Pink Personal - eBay, Other Gadgets, Gadgets, Electronics. (end time 08-Jan-09 15:56:45 AEDST)

 

[equazcion]

I can't state my opinion on the idea cause I'm too disgusted by the decision to ban a substance based on the fact that kids can get to it. There are tons of products like that. Everyone knows you don't put your cleaning products and your medications where little hands can get to them. They don't ban bleach and Windex and Tylenol, they just pass label warning requirements and educate the public on the care required in storing them. Why should this be any different? I suspect that there was some other reason for the ban -- and it might be as simple as fear of the unknown, this new and "strange" product.

 

[halopunker]

I can't state my opinion on the idea cause I'm too disgusted by the decision to ban a substance based on the fact that kids can get to it. There are tons of products like that.

Guns, Medicine, House Cleaners, Gasoline Tank, Wood Saws (Power Tools), Electrical Outlets...

Aye, I do agree. Companies shouldn't be held responsible in anyways for parents not watching/safeguarding their children.

 

[Frankie]

Nothing in the previous two posts negates anything from the first and original one. We are not talking about enforcing anything - people can still jump off bridges anyway - just about something that should become a common and widely recognized good practise for every owner.

Comparison with guns, common household chemicals or medicines is just plain unfair.

None of these items will kill a child it it just spills on her little hand. Guns do not look and feel cute and safe (and every sane person protects them from kids access anyway), and the rest requires swallowing for substantial harm. Which means vomiting as the first aid works miracles, but will not help if the nic poisoning was by skin contact. And, unlike other poisons, there is *no* antidote for nicotine. Locking the stuff up is the least every owner with kids should do. And companies should warn every customer very firmly about the dangers present in their product. Not just vague phrases about toxicity, but strong warning about skin contact/lethal doses.

 

[equazcion]

I wasn't aware that skin contact causes death. If that's true then I stand corrected.

 

[TropicalBob]

Full labeling and childproofing containers would be major steps forward for our practice. The way things are done today is a joke -- and the joke can't go on.

Trumpy has done a good thing, but how many others will follow suit as sales increase. And, no, don't compare our liquid with other hazards. Most poisonous items are forced by law to have additives to make them smell and taste bad. Even the formulation of ant-freeze radiator fluid was changed because dogs lapped up overfills -- and died. With reformulation, it's not attractive to them.

Since our fluids are specifically for ingestion through the lungs and mouth, they cannot stink or taste terrible. Exactly the opposite. And that's the problem for children and pets.

But the answer has to go far beyond individual responsibility. There is corporate liability and general public interest to be addressed by liquid makers. Right now, only Pillbox, Cash and JC seem at all interested in making vaping safer. If the others don't follow suit -- and soon -- then expect agencies acting in the public interest to crack down on our practice. With good reason, too.

 

[equazcion]

All good points. Liquid bottles should be at least as difficult to open as prescription medication, and all liquid producers should get on that asap, along with on-bottle cautions.

 

[Frankie]

Of course not every skin contact with every concentration liquid for every person. But if you read the nicotine safety part of this forum, you will find first hand stories of adult users with relatively high tolerance getting very sick by skin contact (I remember a hand or just a finger and a thigh - leakage from trousers pocket) with relatively small amounts of liquid. Now enter a child with no tolerance at all (and the LD for a kid is 4-6 times lower than that of an adult), younger skin with higher absorption, complete lack of fear because that stuff smells great...

It is everyones personal responsibility - but only if they were properly warned by the seller. If the seller fails to warn them adequately, then the seller also bears a substantial part of the responsibility him/her self.

I love e-cigs. I love the liquid much more than the carts because I can mix my own strenghts exactly to my liking. But it needs just a single one tragedy that gets to the media and we can all go back to analogs or cold turkey - or prison. I would not like that

 

[trog100]

None of these items will kill a child it it just spills on her little hand

the stuff of nightmares dude.. and luckily not true..

i have been one of the people pointing out the dangers of e liquid for quite some time.. but i wouldnt go quite that far..

having said that in the UK i cant buy any more than fifty aspirin tablets in case some idiot wants to die in a very painful way with misuse of them..

only let the (potential) idiots have the potentially dangerous products in small (less than lethal) doses..

which if it comes down to it means a complete ban on liquid period.. the idiots wont be allowed to have it.. which means none of us will..

this aint a game u can play from both sides.. the idiots will let their little girls near the stuff.. its the idiots we are being protected from.. idiots also have little girls..

playing god is hard to do.. when it was all down to "his will" life was a lot easier...

god gave us free will cos he was never held to account.. our political leaders think they might be held to account which why they are busy trying to take our god given free will away from us..

the point.. the same case being made for a safe will be the same case our leaders use to ban the stuff completely.. as i say its not a game that can be played from both sides..

trog

 

[nqhqhz]

I agree with Trumpybloke and TropicalBob - and the current situation is untenable. I don't think that just applies to liquid. I am talking about cartridges too. While most cartridges are probably reasonably safe, there is nothing to prevent a manufacturer from one that is a lot less so. Since there's no way to globally regulate, there is an opportunity for us as consumers outside China to blacklist dodgy suppliers and nag them into being reasonable. Those who have childsafed their containers and liquids are showing the way.


I also disagree with the comparison to other things - it is very easy for a child or pet to swallow a cartridge but not so easy for them to drink a bottle of whiskey, or unpack a whole blister of paracetamol. This is a whole different beast, both in format and potency. Incidentally, why is e-liquid not transdermally absorbed, when other forms of nicotine are?

Edit: While it's important to be responsible, I don't have any children and I am not an expert in product regulation. I am interested in the public image of this useful product.

 

[equazcion]

... it is very easy for a child or pet to chew through a cartridge but not so easy for them to drink a bottle of whiskey. Incidentally, why is e-liquid not transdermally absorbed, when other forms of nicotine are?

Well, e-liquid bottles are much smaller than a bottle of whiskey. They can fit in tiny hands, are light enough for children to pick up and throw around, the glass ones can break and the plastic ones can be chewed through, I'd think, about as easily as a cart.

I'm not sure what you mean about the transdermal part. e-liquid is apparently absorbed through the skin, according to the posts here. That's the problem. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.

 

[nqhqhz]

Well, e-liquid bottles are much smaller than a bottle of whiskey. They can fit in tiny hands, are light enough for children to pick up and throw around, the glass ones can break and the plastic ones can be chewed through, I'd think, about as easily as a cart.

I'm not sure what you mean about the transdermal part. e-liquid is apparently absorbed through the skin, according to the posts here. That's the problem. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.

I was actually replying to trog100 but forgot to reference him - unless there is something different about e-liquid (does it hold the nicotine in suspension or is it dissolved?) I know I certainly won't be letting it sit on my skin.

I admit not to having seen a glass bottle of e-liquid with my own eyes so I don't know how potentially dangerous the ampoule-style ones are. Some of the plastic ones appear to have a complex mechanism at the top which at least appears more professional.

 

[Frankie]

Incidentally, why is e-liquid not transdermally absorbed, when other forms of nicotine are?

E-liquid *is" transdermally absorbed and can be dangerous this way, as several members of this forums including at least one supplier can attest and have already attested in the "Nicotine Safety" section. You spill in on your skin, you get an almost immediate dose to your bloodstream. No way to stop it, no way to block the effects. If you get too much, you die. Simple as that. Doctors can try and beat individual symptoms like fibrilations, extreme BP, etc., but not much more.

Any individual claiming the opposite should just rub a mililitre or so on his palms. This should not kill the bugger if the individual is healthy, but will be felt quite distinctly.

 

[trog100]

dunno but as a test i have just poured about 1 ml of 36 mg wicked (french pipe) onto the back of my left hand and rubbed it in.. thick greasy slimy stuff covering a fair amount of skin area.. ..

i will leave it for ten minutes and see what happens..

trog

 

[Smokin]

Oh my God It's Trog the martyr!

For the cause Trog, for the cause!

 

[trog100]

well i didnt just spill it i deliberately rubbed it in and its still there.. and so am i nearly twenty minute later....

i am probably immune to the stuff who knows..

never believe word u read on forums..

just wiped it off.. the greasy factor probably does hold it in suspension.. dunno..

trog

 

[Kaston]

Sometimes I overfill the cart and it ends up on my chin after inhaling. It causes an instant reaction of redness, itching, burning, and is followed by a bout of pimples; I have never had pimples before vaping.

 

[TropicalBob]

Trog, we're alike in this way: I have so much nicotine in my blood that I warn folks every time I donate blood. Whoever gets it will have a sudden, strange craving to smoke a cigarette.

I wrote long ago that I soaked a Band-Aid in 24mg liquid and wore it on my abdomen for a few hours, to see if I could get anything from transdermal absorption. Nada. Not even a red rash.

I also made nasal spray from it. Burned the hell out of my nostrils.

The stuff we use seems to effect everyone quite individually. I've written that I don't get any "hit" from vaping. I don't. So I always have a snus going at the same time and my pipe smoking is increasing.