Looking for your thoughts on regulation

[JackLebeau]

Hi there people! I'm a writer researching an article about the impending FDA regulations - we're basically looking to get together opinions from the vaping community on what you think regulation should look like for e-cigs. So, if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them! Feel free to bash the FDA, rant or comment about anything you like, but I have a couple of questions to guide you as to the sort of thing I'm looking for!

What do you think e-cigarette regulation should look like – or would you be opposed to regulation in any form?

Do you see any benefit from a limit on nicotine content or restrictions on available flavors? If such restrictions were imposed, do you think e-cigs would still be as viable an alternative to traditional cigarettes?

The idea is to put together the best responses into an article and help entrench our solidarity on the run-up to the FDA getting involved and inevitably doing something that will piss everybody off, so there's a chance you'll get a mention in the finished article when it's completed (with your consent, of course)!

 

[Pickleskunk]

In my opinion, they can make the legal age to buy them 18. They can also require that they be blended and packaged in a sterile and clean, approved(approval by an industry appointed regulatory committee, not the FDA) facility. Those I would be ok with. I would strongly oppose any further restrictions. Nothing would stop me from vaping if the just outlawed it completely. The black market would thrive with nicotine, and I would partake in the underground ecig business happily. I do not think I will ever go back to cigarettes and cigars. Banning of alcohol and drugs has never worked in this country. tobacco products haven't been banned completely because of the big money it brings to people in the right places, and to the government.
The only benefit from restricting nicotine content or available flavors, would be for the big tobacco companies.

 

[JackLebeau]

I'm with you on pretty much everything there! I don't know of anybody who suggests that they should be sold to minor (although, I think that for minors who smoke, there's an argument for somebody - assumedly a Dr. - to be able to override the rule for the sake of their health), and I think it's pretty much inevitable for there to be rules about manufacturing standards. I think self-regulation would be great for the industry (since the people who know the business are in the best position determine what the standards should be), but I can see why people might not want to go for that as an approach. There's kind of an inherent danger in an industry who only answers to themselves. Just as we can argue that the FDA and many organizations are biased by their ties to big pharma, I think there would be an element of bias if it was regulated by people who stood to make money from it. No matter how badly it was regulated it would still be much better than smoking, though, so I suppose there's always that. Maybe the best approach is to have a self-regulator overseen by somebody without ties to the industry.

I'm with you on the black market vaping approach if they are banned! If things get more difficult here in the UK when the regulations come in I'm definitely starting to mix my own liquids!

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...'sterile facility' Is the food you eat prepared in a 'sterile facility?'

 

[pamdis]

If they must be regulated, I think it should be regulated the same way as my TV dinner is, and not an inch more. What are they required to do? Not sure what agencies oversee them, or what regulations are applied, but I would think it would be:

Are there any mfg requirements? What agency oversees this?

Are there any ingredient limits? I know they are required to list them, but I don't think they are limited as to their quantities.

Are there any requirements on proving the safety of any ingredient before inclusion? Or is anything pretty much allowed until someone proves it is harmful, and then it is pulled (or not) from the market? And if so, what is the definition of harmful? Makes you fat, raises your cholesterol or blood pressure levels, gives you heartburn, increases your risk of Alzheimers 50 years in the future?

ETA: This of course would apply only to the e-liquids, as they are ingested. Not even sure this is necessary. As far as the hardware, they should be regulated in the same manner that any other consumer product already is (or isn't). Maybe restricting lead paint in my drip tip?

ETA: I think the whole idea that they NEED to be regulated is a brainwashing we have unnecessarily succumbed to.

ETA: On second thought, it's not really ingested, so food regulations may be too stiff. How are fog machine liquids regulated? Cleaning product fumes, candle scents, perfumes?

 

[twgbonehead]

To answer your questions:

1. I believe e-cig sales to minors should be prohibited.

2. I do NOT think that there should be limitations on nicotine strength, for several reasons.

First, many vapers like to make their own juices because then they are much more in control of what goes into them and how they taste. In order to do this, higher-concentrated juice is needed, since it will get diluted by the addition of flavorings and PG or VG.

Second, one of the strongest advantages of e-cigarettes over something like the patch is that the e-cig user can control his nicotine dosage (much like with smoking cigarettes). The "continuous dosage" of the patch does NOT simulate nicotine intake in the same manner as cigarette smoking. Many vapers who used to be heavy smokers find that lower-strength nicotine does not work for them, particularly if their opportunities to vape (for example at work) are restricted to times when they could be smoking instead.

3. What sense does it make to restrict flavorings? The ONLY rationalization I have heard for this is "The Children". But that is taken care of by prohibiting the sale to minors. I have about 45 different flavors of e-liquids, and not a single one of them is tobacco or menthol flavored. None of them are Bubble Gum, Cotton Candy or Gummy Bear either. My favorites are various cheesecake flavors, Black Licorice, Cinammon Bun, etc. To me it seems that the real motive is to continue to punish smokers (and ex-smokers!) in an attempt to make vaping just as pleasant as the patch.

4. Why the intense concern on quality of ingredients, or manufacturing standards? For me this is replacing cigarette smoking, where I am inhaling a large number of chemicals which are known to be dangerous. Is the FDA going to certify that tobacco processing (at all stages, from the farm to the shelf) doesn't add anything extra, and is performed under sterile conditions?

There is currently a lot of competition between juice vendors, and those that do not make a quality product will not stay in business. If a juice company wants to certify their production environment and do spectrographic analyses of their juices (as some are now doing!) then a customer can decide to use them.

The "safety" of e-juice is a red herring, plain and simple. The FDA is not effective in protecting our produce from salmonella, e-coli, listeria and other deadly contaminates, and always points to outbreaks as "We just don't have the manpower to inspect and test everything". So somehow e-juice is such a dangerous threat that it merits pulling the few inspectors off of food and drug inspections so they can inspect e-juice factories? Personally I see a much greater potential for danger in the food I eat than in the liquids I vape. Food production provides numerous opportunities for contamination, whereas the manufacture of e-juice only requires simple precautions to provide an "as advertised" product.

To compound the issue, the FDA has shown a complete lack of understanding of basic science when it conducted the one-and-only test it has ever done on e-juice. Before we start handing over more funds to the FDA to do any kind of certification, I would like to see one example of a competent analysis of e-juice conducted by the FDA, with their findings reviewed and published in a respectable scientific publication.

Hope there's something you can use in there.

 

[Shopan]

Well as Stated Above, I am For Age Restrictions. I am for industry standards for Juice Prep and Packaging, as well as allergy notifications. I am for a Limit of Nicotine However;Not for suppliers But for Home makers, as Nicotine is Toxic I can see a 70Mg limit. As for Flavors, DO NOT TOUCH THEM!! That is Half the Reason I have Fallen in Love with Vaping and there is NO Argument that can stand on its own that there is a Reason to limit the Amazing Variety that is Possible.
Some things You did not mention that Need to be embraced by this Community is the ability to have Juice in Bottles and Internet Sales. We need Both of those along with the others and with those 4 things (bottles, Flavors, Nic, and Sales) Our end of Vaping will be Fine. I do not want to have to stoop to Calling and waiting like a Thug to Vape...

Http://www.casaa.org

 

[ShariR]

The problem with regulation is that it is going to put many of the smaller eliquid vendors out of business. They can not afford to do all the expensive testing that the big boys (big tobacco) can do. Maybe regulation and testing for the major suppliers of the nicotine and flavorings that are sold to the market. But I believe that is already being done.

Possibly some sort of standards for cleanliness for the mom and pop operations like what is done for restaurants so we can insure our liquids are being mixed in a clean environment. The trouble with regulations is that they will probably be drawn up at a level that can not be met except by big pharma or big tobacco and that will kill the industry.

I am not sure what should be done regarding regulation. I know I want pure ingredients and assurance that the stuff I am inhaling is clean and safe, whatever that means. Self regulation is great as long as everyone follows the rules. How do you ensure that?

Banning sales of the devices is not going to help anything or anybody except big tobacco.

I do not think anyone knows what the right answers are at this point. Sounds like the discussion right now is an all or nothing one. Neither is productive. I have not seen any proposals as to what would be an acceptable list of regulations, just the hysteria on both sides of the argument. And who is going to run the show, who should run the show? Where are the clinical trials and who would be drawing up the criteria for such a trial? Hope I am making sense here.

 

[gayhalo]

Hardware should be covered by existing sale of goods and electrical testing. Liquids should be labeled with their contents and THOES contents should be Pharmacutical quality. Most liquids meet this today. The flavouring should be food quality and be oil free. I do not think an age ban is productive. If children started by vaping INSTEAD of smoking it's a winner. There is no evidence of vaping being a gateway to smoking, in fact the latest survey says it is not. Some children may vape that would not have smoked but it will not kill them and may not even make them dependant on nicotine. I can see no real reason to have any more regulation than food, cosmetics or toys. As far as the nicotine content, I mix my own and I am down to a low dose of nicotine. Not because I want to reduce it but the body knows how much it needs and just like smoking you only have what your body wants.... It's not like alcohol where people seem to just drink to oblivion.

 

[dspin]

No restrictions as far as Im concerned.

 

[JackLebeau]

Thanks for the awesome responses everyone! Good point (several of you) about the food stuff - I agree that there's more potential for harm to come through poor regulation in that department, not to mention the god-awful job they do on pharmaceuticals (Chantix being one example of many) which can seriously harm/kill people when they go wrong. If the FDA understood science then they'd probably have an issue with the woeful design of many studies touted to promote prescription drugs and the systematic hiding and misrepresentation of evidence which allows the pharmaceuticals to thrive. The e-liquid analysis is just the tip of a disturbing iceberg. Although, I still think I see that study as a cynical attempt to mislead; I don't think I can accept a group of people being that idiotic.

Flavor limitations is another one I don't think I've ever seen anybody (who doesn't irrationally hate anything that resembles smoking) seriously suggest as a necessity. The "think of the children" argument annoys me every single time I see it, because it's so obviously based on nothing whatsoever. Age restrictions should ensure that it isn't an issue, but even then I'm with Gayhalo that in many ways it would be counter-productive. I think these hysterical idiots need to realise that no matter what you do some children will still start smoking. That's often how we get smokers. Vaping is so obviously the lesser of two evils.

I do not think anyone knows what the right answers are at this point. Sounds like the discussion right now is an all or nothing one. Neither is productive. I have not seen any proposals as to what would be an acceptable list of regulations, just the hysteria on both sides of the argument. And who is going to run the show, who should run the show? Where are the clinical trials and who would be drawing up the criteria for such a trial?

Yes! I agree that all or nothing definitely isn't the way to think about this - although I think the situation is absolutely fine as it is, there will undoubtedly be regulations so it's time to start looking for some mutually-acceptable ground. There have been some trials, of course, but I think the big problem for e-cigs is that the majority of ordinary clinical trials are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, and in this case they definitely aren't going to put up the cash to show that their products are inadequate in comparison. So it's largely left to academic institutions, people like CASAA and industry-funded studies I guess, which is probably slowing progress down a little.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...any ground given certainly won't be ceded back.

 

[Shopan]

...any ground given certainly won't be ceded back.

Indeed but some ground needs to be laid. .. I want rules against minors and I want ingredients and child safety lids on juice...I want mom and pops to thrive and will continue to support them.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Indeed but some ground needs to be laid. .. I want rules against minors and I want ingredients and child safety lids on juice...I want mom and pops to thrive and will continue to support them.

I suggest you support suppliers that conform to your values.

 

[Shopan]

I do and will..What sites do you go to that do Not ask for Age Verification? And I have yet to get a Bottle of Juice that was not sealed and Child proof. I am Not Allergic to anything so It is not a Concern but it is For Some...The Point is that We need Rules to prevent people from Harm;Not that we are not doing it on our own But So everyone has a Standard...

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I do and will..What sites do you go to that do Not ask for Age Verification? And I have yet to get a Bottle of Juice that was not sealed and Child proof. I am Not Allergic to anything so It is not a Concern but it is For Some...The Point is that We need Rules to prevent people from Harm;Not that we are not doing it on our own But So everyone has a Standard...

I recall no sites I have used that do not ask for age verification. I have no need for Child proof packaging, though some sites I use have offered Child proof as an option. It seems you are largely doing your part to support what you think need to be. You might communicate with your suppliers to encourage them to provide a listing of contents, on the label if you prefer.

 

[pamdis]

Yeah, child proof caps should be an option for the customer to choose. Just like medicine bottles where they had to make the cap work both ways so that people with arthritis could open them.

 

[Nermal]

I'm with you on pretty much everything there!

If you are planning on a career as a research writer, your reputation will probably be better if you avoid influencing your subjects.

 

[samcm010]

I am 100% opposed to any regulation. The government does nothing well and therefore have proven without a shadow of a doubt they cannot "regulate" vaping well. I am also 100% comfortable completely ignoring any regulations and "breaking the law" to continue to vape in the manor I choose.

 

[Petrodus]

The e-cigarette industry is "self regulating" (period)
All those on the ECF posting they think Mommie FDA should regulate this or that ...
Be careful what you wish for !!