My battle so far with customs / Health Canada

[Bosman]

Hi all,
Well it did happen eventually. After almost three years of getting e-cig hardware and juice for personal use from China, my very first package with 6-50ml 6mg juice and some hardware was "seized". After talking to very nice lady at customs, who did hear me out and we actually had a good talk with her, she did not want to get into the law or legality of (d) exemption of the Food and Drug Act but simply referred me to Health Canada. She said samples of liquid were sent to HC lab and they got advisement not to release the package. I just spoke with an officer from Health Canada who took my info, waybill number and informed that I will be contacted back at some point today or tomorrow. Lady from customs did say it is juice that is problem, so I guess my forthcoming chit-chat with HC will be about the nicotine. What else, other than exempt from Schedule F of the Food and Drug Act do I have to support my claim??

Suggestions?

Thanks all!

 

[Bosman]

Well, HC did call back. While we came to agreement that the e-cigarette hardware is not banned and not illegal, discussion stopped at the e-liquid. HC argued that subsection (d) of the act does not apply because it is not a product that obtained market authorisation. My package will not be released, period. What next?? Appeal? Any thoughts?

 

[jeffd]

I am not sure if this would fly but if its a definite no-go for you to receive the liquid I would be pushing that it is returned to the originator \ vendor in hopes you can be refunded as you were not aware that it was against the law ....however is it pushing things seeing you were able to keep the hardware...your call i guess.

 

[SoUnique]

Ask them to show you the law that says you can't have it.

 

[Bosman]

Lilkurty => got your PM, will reply in the evening, I am working hard at work right now Many thanks in advance!
As an update, I have contacted HC again and requested information as to whom in the Edmonton office I should write an appeal in order to have my package released and delivered. They took my info and someone is to call me back....I was unable to speak to the same person I spoke before. Stay tuned....

 

[Lilkurty]

argued that subsection (d) of the act does not apply because it is not a product that obtained market authorisation. My package will not be released, period. What next?? Appeal? Any thoughts?

...no it is not a product that has met market authorization, that's why they have the rest of the rules like Sec F (which they currently have published in the Canada Gazette to be amended to include nicotine (inhalation). Anyway, that is neither here nor there. Your shipment is under the nic level. That is that!




So I'll just post here what I sent you via pm when my email entry to ECF was being blocked

Customs
Hey,
for some reason I can't post a reply in the thread but here goes.....

First off, you should ask what is the specific reason that they are refusing. Your stuff is perfectly OK and is below the Nicotine restriction.

You don't need market authorization per :

All health products imported for sale in Canada must meet the requirements of the Food and Drugs Act and its Regulations at the time of importation (which you have)or, in the case of market authorized drugs, they must be able to come into compliance within the time period specified in A.01.044 of Part A of the Food and Drug Regulations.

E liquid has not been classified as anything yet. The FDA will regulate it as tobacco probably but they lost the fight in their claim that this is a drug/delivery device

In short, HC has not classified nor regulated this as anything then, therefore it is a consumer good that meets the criteria for approval according to their own damn Act

5.2 Importation for Personal Use


In the event that there is no Canadian Reference Product the Inspectorate
will exercise discretion and base a decision on information, preferably from
other health authorities or recognized sources, available at the time of decision.**

And so, that would only leave the argument that they found TSNAs in a sample of Chinese product that they reported on.
That report however was found to be grossly flawed and the FDA lost in court to NJOY who commissioned a third party scientific study the link to which is here


http://hamsnetwork.org/tobacco3/ecig.pdf

The conclusion was that the TSNAs that were present in the Chinese sample were also present in FDA approved NRTs and at levels that are so low they are not measurable. That means Peres per billion or maybe even trillion.

It is also worth noting that those same TSNAs that the FDA said were carcinogens, are reported in the same document as having no published scientific data anywhere to support that claim.
************************************************** ***********************
A Canadian who chooses to obtain a health product from outside Canada which may or may not have been reviewed and market authorized by Health Canada is allowed to import:


A single course of treatment or a 90-day supply based on the directions for use, whichever is less, of a health product as long as the product does not contain a substance listed in Schedule F of the Food and Drug Regulations.

 

[Bosman]

Well, the phone rang yet again and it was the same person at HC Edmonton I spoke earlier. I have received email address and toll-free number where I can voice my appeal and have the package released. We had a very good talk and the officer was very helpful and actually very supportive. She also informed me that letter from HC has been sent to me on Feb 8th and I should wait until I receive the letter before I send my appeal as it will contain information why the package was not released.

So at this point this is getting very interesting. If one of you would like to voice your thoughts and suggestions in the wording of the email I will be sending to the Food & Drug Liason Office, do feel free to PM me.

Thanks all, stay tuned!

 

[Lilkurty]

Well, the phone rang yet again and it was the same person at HC Edmonton I spoke earlier. I have received email address and toll-free number where I can voice my appeal and have the package released. We had a very good talk and the officer was very helpful and actually very supportive. She also informed me that letter from HC has been sent to me on Feb 8th and I should wait until I receive the letter before I send my appeal as it will contain information why the package was not released.

So at this point this is getting very interesting. If one of you would like to voice your thoughts and suggestions in the wording of the email I will be sending to the Food & Drug Liason Office, do feel free to PM me.

Thanks all, stay tuned!

Bosman,

I would be happy to help! When you get the letter let me know and I can draft up some stuff and we'll get the forum to give feedback.

There really is nothing that I can see that they could bring up that I can't argue. Up until now they have been using scare tactics and making it sound as though we're smuggling something illegal, at least that is the feeling that I get.
NO MORE ...I am flying back to Wpg on Thursday from FL so I clear in Wpg and I am not leaving without my stuff. Even if I have to pitch a tent at the virtual border at James Richardon Airport!....I expect with a small legion of Manitoba vapers protesting.

 

[froghammer]

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but have a sneaky feeling you're going to waste a whole bunch of your time and ultimately not get the juice.

 

[struckus]

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but have a sneaky feeling you're going to waste a whole bunch of your time and ultimately not get the juice.

yeah I agree..unfortunately they have your stuff and will just keep quoting bs regulations etc no matter how wrong they are..short of hiring a lawyer I think it's a lost cause..

 

[Lilkurty]

I'm interested in seeing where this is going, but have a sneaky feeling you're going to waste a whole bunch of your time and ultimately not get the juice.

You may be right but I have lots of time for this. I have all the documentation to support my claim. If the Chinese stuff is being seized for some other reason then you're right, probably not going to get very far. However, I am going with 100% US grade FDA stamped e liquid....liquid gold....Texas tea

I will not be bullied or take any bull from them. Don't get me wrong, I don't plan on being an ... about it, I am simply not going to give in to spin.

 

[Esharp]

This is all very interesting. Waiting for the next episode.

 

[Lilkurty]

OK, I am going to have to just go on some assumptions here so don't quote me on this:

E-liquid with nicotine is allowed into Canada (Schedule F)

90 day supply (make sure your bottles are labelled with mg strength and # ml)

max strength is defined as 4mg/dose

**so here I assume that 1 dose = 1 cig

**assume 1 puff=100cc X 15 puffs

MAX 3.75 mg

 

[Projectguy]

OK, I am going to have to just go on some assumptions here so don't quote me on this:

E-liquid with nicotine is allowed into Canada (Schedule F)

90 day supply (make sure your bottles are labelled with mg strength and # ml)

max strength is defined as 4mg/dose

**so here I assume that 1 dose = 1 cig

**assume 1 puff=100cc X 15 puffs

MAX 3.75 mg

Use the "judo" method - use their own weight against them. We should all order VG at zero nic, label it at 24 mg (my dose of choice) and make certain they seize it. It'll jam their lab for ever.

 

[Lilkurty]

Use the "judo" method - use their own weight against them. We should all order VG at zero nic, label it at 24 mg (my dose of choice) and make certain they seize it. It'll jam their lab for ever.

They deserve it those preachy whining control freaks! You know, if we did play it their way based on the highest dose recommended on the Nicotol inhaler we'd be at about 50 mg.

 

[Kagey K]

I know people flying in on the 25th with likely a few 60 or 120 ml bottles with 15 mg nic. I warned them that they may have to dump it but they are going try to bury it in their checked luggage. There are no fines or smuggling laws that can be induced at this point? They aren't lying or carrying tobacco so what is the worst implication? That the juice doesn't cross the "border" sorry but an imaginary line in Calgary does not constitute a border to me.

 

[Lilkurty]

I know people flying in on the 25th with likely a few 60 or 120 ml bottles with 15 mg nic. I warned them that they may have to dump it but they are going try to bury it in their checked luggage. There are no fines or smuggling laws that can be induced at this point? They aren't lying or carrying tobacco so what is the worst implication? That the juice doesn't cross the "border" sorry but an imaginary line in Calgary does not constitute a border to me.

They should be fine as the nic level is low. This has not been defined yet in Canada, it is not a prescription drug and it is not regulated as tobacco, therefore in my mind it is a substance for human use. Usually customs asks if I have alcohol or tobacco and based on that I'd just say no.

You are right, there are no fines or smuggling laws, however customs has ultimate authority and can seize if they want to but your friends should be fine as it is a small quantity and very low nic.

 

[SmokingMechanic]

this is typical canadain harassment. these people have no law or right or basis to seize. the fact that you can not even get a legitimate reason for the seizure is proof enough. i would seriously consider a lawyer and put these people in their place. Stop the harassment. Where is our freedom...

 

[cactusgirl]

OK, I am going to have to just go on some assumptions here so don't quote me on this:

E-liquid with nicotine is allowed into Canada (Schedule F)

90 day supply (make sure your bottles are labelled with mg strength and # ml)

max strength is defined as 4mg/dose

**so here I assume that 1 dose = 1 cig

**assume 1 puff=100cc X 15 puffs

MAX 3.75 mg

You've lost me here...Max 3.75mg is the max per dose for what mg of liquid in what quantity? Can you show the math so that I can follow it? lol

 

[Lilkurty]

You've lost me here...Max 3.75mg is the max per dose for what mg of liquid in what quantity? Can you show the math so that I can follow it? lol

So again I am assuming the dose because it is not defined


1 dose = 1 cig ( analog )

4mg/1500 cc (15 puffs)

1500 / 4 = 3.37 mg max strength

OK?
I did ask for brainiacs in my earlier post