My battle so far with customs / Health Canada

[cactusgirl]

So again I am assuming the dose because it is not defined


1 dose = 1 cig ( analog )

4mg/1500 cc (15 puffs)

1500 / 4 = 3.37 mg max strength

OK?
I did ask for brainiacs in my earlier post

View attachment 178053

I'll be the first to admit that I'm easily confused, lol. I'm trying to figure out how many cc's are in 1 ml....to the best of my recollection, I thought that 1cc=1ml and if that's the case, 1500cc's (or 1500mls) seems like an awfully high number to require 1 dose or 15 puffs......????

 

[Ayce]

This is a good question.
My Dr. (N.P.) keeps asking "What is the equivilent in cigs?" to how much you vape? I have to say I have no real idea, but I go through about 30ml/mo of 12mg/ml juice.

As far as getting your juice, OP, good luck. (I mean that in a good way, not the sarcastic way. )

 

[Bosman]

O wow...a lot of posts overnight. With regards to the calculations on a dose, calculations are based on the info provided on page 1 in the PDF report from NJOY. As far as getting the juice out of customs, well, at this moment I have nothing to lose. In the end, if I am not successful, I cannot say that I did not try. Stay tuned.

 

[Lilkurty]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm easily confused, lol. I'm trying to figure out how many cc's are in 1 ml....to the best of my recollection, I thought that 1cc=1ml and if that's the case, 1500cc's (or 1500mls) seems like an awfully high number to require 1 dose or 15 puffs......????

I think that confusion is part of FDA/HC strategy. They conveniently leave out key information that would hurt their argument that vaping is not safe while not acknowledging critical information that has been shown to disprove their original analysis .

This is from the Independent Third Party Study done by NJOY and used in their Federal case against the FDA (btw, they won;-)

The report does not reflect the actual dose of nicotine delivered to the user from the “control” Nicotrol® inhaler device when used as recommended by the manufacturer (6–16 cartridges/day or 24–64 mg of nicotine, 50 mcg/100 mL puff).

Anyway 1cc=1ml
1 puff = 100cc
15 puff = 1 cig (analog)

So, you can just think about how you used to smoke. Did you burn through in 10 drags or was it 20, I don't know so I just picked a reasonable number of drags.

Whatever the number of drags 10 (1000 cc) or 15 (1500 cc), the FDA is saying that 4 mg of nicotine is the max allowed per dose.

Just an observation from my fairly nooby standpoint. It seems that as people transition from analogs to vaping they increase their vaping frequency and lower their nicotine strength. Which is a good thing!

 

[Bosman]

Well, I have received the letter from HC today. Their reasoning to refuse 4 50ml bottles of 6mg liquid is as follows:
Action Taken: Recommended for Refusal
REASON
Food and Drug Regualations -- C.01.045(1)
Subject to subsection (2), no person other than: a practitioner, a drug manufacturer, a wholesale druggist, a registered pharmacists, or a resident of a foreign country while a visitor in Canada, shall import Schedule F Drug.

So, do we slash it all together as liquid is not a drug (no health claims) and hence does not even fall in the Food and Drug Regulations or to proceed with the exempt in the Schedule F stating that Nicotine and its salts, for human use, except (d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit? Justification would come from the NJOY tests (page 1 of this thread) clearly showing below 4mg delivery per dosage unit?

Can someone clarify how the Consumer Product and how does the nicotine fall within its scope?

 

[Projectguy]

I know people flying in on the 25th with likely a few 60 or 120 ml bottles with 15 mg nic. I warned them that they may have to dump it but they are going try to bury it in their checked luggage. There are no fines or smuggling laws that can be induced at this point? They aren't lying or carrying tobacco so what is the worst implication? That the juice doesn't cross the "border" sorry but an imaginary line in Calgary does not constitute a border to me.

Are they "returning Canadians"? Because if they are visitors from a foregin country then they can't be harassed

Subject to subsection (2), no person other than: a practitioner, a drug manufacturer, a wholesale druggist, a registered pharmacists, or a resident of a foreign country while a visitor in Canada, shall import Schedule F Drug.

 

[Projectguy]

They should be fine as the nic level is low. This has not been defined yet in Canada, it is not a prescription drug and it is not regulated as tobacco, therefore in my mind it is a substance for human use. Usually customs asks if I have alcohol or tobacco and based on that I'd just say no.

You are right, there are no fines or smuggling laws, however customs has ultimate authority and can seize if they want to but your friends should be fine as it is a small quantity and very low nic.View attachment 178014

I doesn't matter what level they bring in see Bosman's post:

Subject to subsection (2), no person other than: a practitioner, a drug manufacturer, a wholesale druggist, a registered pharmacists, or a resident of a foreign country while a visitor in Canada, shall import Schedule F Drug.

 

[Hello World]

Many American vendors shipping to Canada either recommend, or automatically ship hardware separate from liquids for exactly that reason -- it's too prone getting CC's attention. It's been my experience this practice is not followed by all vendors esp. those from other countries such as China.

Food and Drug Regualations -- C.01.045(1)
Subject to subsection (2), no person other than: a practitioner, a drug manufacturer, a wholesale druggist, a registered pharmacists, or a resident of a foreign country while a visitor in Canada, shall import Schedule F Drug.

I'd love to hear of even 1 case where HC returned any e-liquids.

 

[SloHand]

Rolygate sums the equivalency issue up nicely here.

 

[Bosman]

I will draft a reply to the Food and Drugs Act Liaison Office (that is where I was instructed to file my appeal) tonight. Since HC placed it under Food and Drugs Act, my argumentation will fall on:
- nicotine is not a prescription drug and as such does not fall under the act
- it falls within exempt in Section F, (d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit; Supporting documentation will be in form of NJOY report

I am not doing this because I care about 4 bottles that are being held. I am doing it because I can and I believe, like many of you, that HC had no right to stop me from importation. Post your thoughts please. Perhaps one of the ECTA members can shed more light on this issue.

 

[Projectguy]

I will draft a reply to the Food and Drugs Act Liaison Office (that is where I was instructed to file my appeal) tonight. Since HC placed it under Food and Drugs Act, my argumentation will fall on:
- nicotine is not a prescription drug and as such does not fall under the act
- it falls within exempt in Section F, (d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit; Supporting documentation will be in form of NJOY report

I am not doing this because I care about 4 bottles that are being held. I am doing it because I can and I believe, like many of you, that HC had no right to stop me from importation. Post your thoughts please. Perhaps one of the ECTA members can shed more light on this issue.

First of all belated Happy Birthday.

Second of all commend and support you on your efforts but would like to advise as follows:

1. Know that the bureaucrats have no concept of time;
2. Bureaucrats rarely if ever understand any seense of decency or morality. Their only ethic is to protect their Minister;
3. I / we want you to win but HC can not and will not let you win as it would destablize the bureacrat's sense of the universe and to loose a case like this against "1" guy would be akin to declaring intamate relations with one's mother an event encouraged on family day;
4. Everything that you send must be "media ready" because that's your end game; and,
5. Establish a working/personal relationship with a reporter/media person

Keep us posted and shout out when you need something

 

[Esharp]

Go kick some .... Bosman!

 

[Bosman]

Thank you for the B-Day wishes, I feel one year wiser and....let's leave it at that

I know it is difficult to get through the red tape. But ultimately, the agency is funded by me, as a taxpayer, and I do want to have my money put into good use. Projectguy, could you elaborate on your statement "media ready? I will be writing my response to HC in a proper, business form and language. I might have a difficulty complying with the point number 5...

 

[Projectguy]

Thank you for the B-Day wishes, I feel one year wiser and....let's leave it at that

I know it is difficult to get through the red tape. But ultimately, the agency is funded by me, as a taxpayer, and I do want to have my money put into good use. Projectguy, could you elaborate on your statement "media ready? I will be writing my response to HC in a proper, business form and language. I might have a difficulty complying with the point number 5...

Bosman When I use the term "media ready" it is my view that it will not be for lack of eloquence, logic or even a correctness in law you will be rebuffed, stonewalled and misdirected at every turn therefore in the end your last appeal will be the 4th estate / the court of public opinion. Media people do not embrace causes, they embrace deadlines. Therefore what ever you write will have to be focused or rifle shots, a body of work that a media person with not much time can scan, access and spit into copy that the lowest common denominator can understand.

 

[Lilkurty]

I will draft a reply to the Food and Drugs Act Liaison Office (that is where I was instructed to file my appeal) tonight. Since HC placed it under Food and Drugs Act, my argumentation will fall on:
- nicotine is not a prescription drug and as such does not fall under the act
- it falls within exempt in Section F, (d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit; Supporting documentation will be in form of NJOY report




I am not doing this because I care about 4 bottles that are being held. I am doing it because I can and I believe, like many of you, that HC had no right to stop me from importation. Post your thoughts please. Perhaps one of the ECTA members can shed more light on this issue.

Absolutely, we all need to stand up to this bullying. I am interested in the outcome Bosman!

 

[Hello World]

I am not doing this because I care about 4 bottles that are being held. I am doing it because I can and I believe, like many of you, that HC had no right to stop me from importation.

Gov't departments don't follow the law, they just make sure you do.

And when they don't have any leg to stand on legally, they'll either harass you or have you run through bureaucratic rat mazes for compliance. Some official high up can make nearly any policy decision within the acceptable framework he likes knowing full well you are not going to spend half a fortune to take them through court over the next 7 years. Been there, done that. They tire you out until you learn that the path of justice is under the table, below the barbed wire, via the back door.

I wish you the best of luck, hope you make it, but unfortunately it doesn't create any precedent for anyone else, as the next bureaucrat may think differently. Until some legal challenge with some serious dough behind it comes along the wheels will just keep turning the way they always have.

 

[Lilkurty]

So I made it back to Canada this afternoon, unscathed and with a checked bag chocked full of supplies! My bag was searched by TSA ( they left a note ), but no problems. I think that the reason they checked mine (because apparently they scan all checked baggage) is because I had a 1L VG. Smaller quantities like Kagey K's friends packed in checked would likely not be flagged but 1L seems to raise concerns. Anyway, it was accurately labelled and I think that this is important.

 

[Toronto_Mike]

Having hired a lawyer in the past to pursue a personal vendetta, the only advice I can give you Bossman is be patient. Most of these bureaucrats are going to play the "do nothing & they'll go away" game. The best way to combat this, is to keep the communication moving forward with periodic reminders but not to become a total nuisance. In the end, they'll respond to close up the file & move on to the numerous others.

We're all behind you 100% of the way.

 

[Hello World]

I think that the reason they checked mine (because apparently they scan all checked baggage) is because I had a 1L peroxide-based cosmetic cleaner. Smaller quantities like Kagey K's friends packed in checked would likely not be flagged but 1L seems to raise concerns.

This is so very true. Taiwan airport authorities seized a gallon of peroxide-based cosmetic cleaner out of my luggage because they thought it might be an explosive substance. A swamper carried it directly from the plane's outside baggage cart around the airport building to my waiting cab. Anything 500 ml and up generates security attention. See: 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot

Nic base is generally not messed with by CC if 250ml and under -- never had one not go through.

 

[Kagey K]

Last time I flew back from the states I got one of those Tsa notices in my luggage over a brick of cheese I had in my checked luggage. I can understand why though. Under the scanner it would have had the same size and consistency of a nice piece of explosives. I actually even expected it.