My E liquid tastes flat compared to the stuff I buy at the store.

[Skunk!]

I have been trying my own juices for a couple months, and I am trying to find out what the professionals are doing that I am not. Even the juices I have steeped seem to come out flat. I have added sweetness sweetener and ethyl malto to them, and tried all sorts of flavors, but they seem to be missing something. I am about to start a new batch and would appreciate any help. Thanks!

 

[Rickajho]

Sorely lacking info to help out. What flavorings and from what companies? What percentages have your tried? What's your recipes?

 

[Skunk!]

I usually run 60% vg to 40% pg with 12 mg nic. I use about 20% if I am doing a tobacco flavor to compensate for the lower pg level ( it says to start at 15. So far I have gotten all my flavor concentrates from Flavor Shack. The only one I have had luck with is Holy Holy Grail RY4 which is delicious by the way. The flavors I have been using mostly include Cappuccino, chocolate,hazelnut, vanilla, caramel, whiskey, amaretto, coffee, and maple. My last experiments were making the flavors individually, at 3 to 15 drops per 6 ml, depending on the strength of the flavor. with 1 drop ethyl malto per ml. I also tried them with half the amount of Sweetness Sweetener. After a few days, I combined the flavors at equal amounts and tried them. The best was cappuccino with caramel, chocolate and hazelnut. It tasted good, but still missing the full bodied richness that even a single flavored juice from the vape store. I have all my original recipes I learned what not to do with them. I could post them but I have figured out what is wrong with them (I can never use a couple of my flavors ever again. Never use 1 ml of amaretto in 15 ml of juice.) I think through doing the flavors separately, I am close to figuring out what I like, and how much to get there, but I am missing something, and I can't quite figure out what it is. I love the Holy Holy Grail, and worst case scenario, I will just make a bunch of it. Thanks!

 

[we2rcool]

I usually run 60% vg to 40% pg with 12 mg nic. I use about 20% if I am doing a tobacco flavor to compensate for the lower pg level ( it says to start at 15. So far I have gotten all my flavor concentrates from Flavor Shack. The only one I have had luck with is Holy Holy Grail RY4 which is delicious by the way. The flavors I have been using mostly include Cappuccino, chocolate,hazelnut, vanilla, caramel, whiskey, amaretto, coffee, and maple. My last experiments were making the flavors individually, at 3 to 15 drops per 6 ml, depending on the strength of the flavor. with 1 drop ethyl malto per ml. I also tried them with half the amount of Sweetness Sweetener. After a few days, I combined the flavors at equal amounts and tried them. The best was cappuccino with caramel, chocolate and hazelnut. It tasted good, but still missing the full bodied richness that even a single flavored juice from the vape store. I have all my original recipes I learned what not to do with them. I could post them but I have figured out what is wrong with them (I can never use a couple of my flavors ever again. Never use 1 ml of amaretto in 15 ml of juice.) I think through doing the flavors separately, I am close to figuring out what I like, and how much to get there, but I am missing something, and I can't quite figure out what it is. I love the Holy Holy Grail, and worst case scenario, I will just make a bunch of it. Thanks!

Depending upon the size of the drop, 1 drop per ml can be around 3%...so if you're adding 1 drop per ml of EM to your mixes, you may be adding 2.5% - 4% of EM! That's MUCH more than most juices would ever require! EM smooths/blends, softens and definitely mutes flavors...and using 3%-ish could definitely be the cause of liquids tasting "flat".

 

[chief63]

I'm still new at DIY, but it takes some patience to work through the inconstancies of drops vs measuring in a syringe, the right percentages for my PG/VG ratio, and difference in strength between vendors. Its taken me some time just to dial in a couple recipes. I think my biggest early mistake (besides over flavoring) was using drops based on 20 = 1ml.

 

[Skunk!]

I was using a syringe at first, but got lazy and started using disposable plastic droppers. They do give bigger drops. I will cut back the EM and hopefully that fixes it. Thanks for the info.

 

[Skunk!]

I'm still new at DIY, but it takes some patience to work through the inconstancies of drops vs measuring in a syringe, the right percentages for my PG/VG ratio, and difference in strength between vendors. Its taken me some time just to dial in a couple recipes. I think my biggest early mistake (besides over flavoring) was using drops based on 20 = 1ml.

It does take a lot of patience. I got kind of frustrated and am buying juice for a little bit. I have learned to appreciate the strength of the flavor concentrates sometimes the hard way. I think weRcool is right and I will tone it down on the sweeteners. I thought they would have the opposite effect. I am gonna make a trip to Flavor Shack to pick up some supplies. No matter how frustrating it gets, DIY juice is a lot of fun

 

[we2rcool]

I was using a syringe at first, but got lazy and started using disposable plastic droppers. They do give bigger drops. I will cut back the EM and hopefully that fixes it. Thanks for the info.

EM is an additive that changes the nature of the juices...sometimes substantially. We should never think of EM as a "sweetener" - it does FAR more than sweeten. Until you are familiar with each of the flavors you have without additives, I suggest you leave it totally out. Then once you've determined the right percentages for your flavors, add it (and/or any other additive) only when you have a specific reason/need for that additive...and then only in very small/measured amounts.

Syringes are pretty-much essential (if you want to be able to consistently recreate your winning juices). Even when the bottles/tips are the same size, the drop-size can change depending upon how hard you squeeze and the temperature of the room.

Of course, it's your "laboratory" - and you can be a mad-scientist-mixer-DIYer any way you'd like!

 

[Skunk!]

EM is an additive that changes the nature of the juices...sometimes substantially. We should never think of EM as a "sweetener" - it does FAR more than sweeten. Until you are familiar with each of the flavors you have without additives, I suggest you leave it totally out. Then once you've determined the right percentages for your flavors, add it (and/or any other additive) only when you have a specific reason/need for that additive...and then only in very small/measured amounts.

Syringes are pretty-much essential (if you want to be able to consistently recreate your winning juices). Even when the bottles/tips are the same size, the drop-size can change depending upon how hard you squeeze and the temperature of the room.

Of course, it's your "laboratory" - and you can be a mad-scientist-mixer-DIYer any way you'd like!

That has been the direction I have been heading. I think I went for too much from the beginning, and lately I have been experimenting mostly with single flavors, and seeing what each one really is and tastes like. I think I got a little bit too gung-ho without having the experience first. I'll make a few more small single flavor batches without the EM and see what they taste like. I like the vanilla and caramel for sweetness and richness so I will try to incorporate them more into my recipes. Thanks for the insight. I will get back to the laboratory aka bathroom soon

 

[michaelsil1]

I was using a syringe at first, but got lazy and started using disposable plastic droppers. They do give bigger drops. I will cut back the EM and hopefully that fixes it. Thanks for the info.

Try it without the EM.

 

[rhythm rambler]

All the tips above are great things to try, but I could swear now that I've diy'd for a bit that a lot of vendors are using more than 20% flavoring, especially when using lesser-concentrated flavors like TFA. For instance, I don't see any way NLV isn't using considerably more than 20% for its Gold. It's funny though, I think DIY has helped my taste buds re-adjust to not as much flavoring, and now what used to be my ADV of NLV Gold now tastes cloying and overpowering to me

 

[Skunk!]

Try it without the EM.

That is the same thing we2rcool was saying. I will do that.

 

[Skunk!]

All the tips above are great things to try, but I could swear now that I've diy'd for a bit that a lot of vendors are using more than 20% flavoring, especially when using lesser-concentrated flavors like TFA. For instance, I don't see any way NLV isn't using considerably more than 20% for its Gold. It's funny though, I think DIY has helped my taste buds re-adjust to not as much flavoring, and now what used to be my ADV of NLV Gold now tastes cloying and overpowering to me

I figured I could get some good advice here. I am going to try it out again using the tips I got, and I am going to let it steep for a looong time, and if should get better results.

 

[we2rcool]

Sucralose, vinegar & lemon juice all have an immediate enhancing effect on juices...but the end result is that they DISenhance, and actually flatten/deaden the juice!

From this thread, excerpts from Posts #408 and #413 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html By the way ACV = Apple Cider Vinegar

I recently performed a very controlled test on ACV versus no ACV. What I have found is:

1) The initial flavor of a tobacco mix with ACV seems better. The overall flavor was smoother and the taste seemed to be enhanced.

2) After a few days aging the mix with ACV changes very little, perhaps slightly muted.

3) The initial flavor of the same mix without ACV was harsher and less balanced. The taste seem to be diminished.

4) After a few days aging the mix without ACV had smoothed and balanced considerably, and the overall taste was similar but stronger than the mix with ACV.

This is very speculative, because different mixes might exhibit different results, however my initial impression is that ACV "seems" to enhance flavor initially, but I believe this is because it may in fact attenuate the total flavor. Initial suppression of some harsh notes could give the impression that the "good" flavor was stronger simply because some harshness that might interfere was suppressed.

After a little aging the harsher elements of the mix without ACV seem to diminish and the result is also a smoother more balanced taste , but also stronger flavor because the "good" flavors are less affected by harsher notes, and now more prominent by virtue of also not being diminished by ACV.

So in summary I believe ACV diminishes flavor, giving an impression of "better" flavor initially but at the cost of total flavor. Brief aging without ACV allows the harsher notes to decline without the better flavors having been diminished as well, and the final result after just a few days is a fuller, equally smooth blend but more overall flavor after a little aging.

Until I decide otherwise, although ACV has been a standard in all my tobacco blends for a long time, I am now currently eliminating it entirely...

PS: At some point I also experimented with dilute citrus flavors - not to add citrus taste but with the intent of pH modification with a milder agent than ACV. I have not repeated those in a controlled experiment but I believe my conclusions were similar - lowering pH by any agent may result in "improved" initial taste but ultimately diminished tobacco flavors...)

Of course YMMV ...

As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.

So remember, when you see recipes with added lemon juice, vinegars, citric acid and sucralose...you're likely going to see the flavor percentages VERY high....but that won't be because "that brand of flavor needs that much" - it'll be because the additives have killed the flavor.

Keep it simple...and you'll spend far less money and make FAR BETTER juices!

And be sure to check out that thread...especially the last few pages about adding saline solution. Now that's an additive that makes flavors pop (and stay popped!) And not only that, it helps hydrate our mouth, throat & nose (yay!)

 

[VapieDan]

I have been trying my own juices for a couple months, and I am trying to find out what the professionals are doing that I am not. Even the juices I have steeped seem to come out flat. I have added sweetness sweetener and ethyl malto to them, and tried all sorts of flavors, but they seem to be missing something. I am about to start a new batch and would appreciate any help. Thanks!

I love heavy flavor. Try increasing the amount of flavoring beyond the recommended limits of 5%-10%. I think the e-cig juice suppliers are calling it double shot.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Find I need a little acid in there, I use malic, for fruit flavors (all I vape, can't comment on tobacco flavors). Maybe it helps balance pH too, gets rid of any soapy taste. As far as the malic acid degrading the overall flavor in a short time, can't say I noticed, but I tend to mix and vape batches quickly, they never sit around for long.

 

[Skunk!]

Sucralose, vinegar & lemon juice all have an immediate enhancing effect on juices...but the end result is that they DISenhance, and actually flatten/deaden the juice!

From this thread, excerpts from Posts #408 and #413 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html By the way ACV = Apple Cider Vinegar






So remember, when you see recipes with added lemon juice, vinegars, citric acid and sucralose...you're likely going to see the flavor percentages VERY high....but that won't be because "that brand of flavor needs that much" - it'll be because the additives have killed the flavor.

Keep it simple...and you'll spend far less money and make FAR BETTER juices!

And be sure to check out that thread...especially the last few pages about adding saline solution. Now that's an additive that makes flavors pop (and stay popped!) And not only that, it helps hydrate our mouth, throat & nose (yay!)

Wow! Great post, thanks! I hadn't used any of the acids in my juices. I heard of people doing that, but hadn't tried it. The saline solution makes perfect sense in the same way that salt brings out the flavor of food. I was putting the EM in it thinking it would have the same effect of sugar in food. The saline probably really opens them up! Now that I think back, the flavors did seem to flatten after a few days, when I thought they would improve. Thanks for showing me that thread too. It looks like a lot of information there!

 

[Skunk!]

I love heavy flavor. Try increasing the amount of flavoring beyond the recommended limits of 5%-10%. I think the e-cig juice suppliers are calling it double shot.

I have been using about 50% more than the suggested amount, and found that to be the sweet spot for me. I have no problem with the tobacco flavors which I use just PG, VG, nic., and one flavor. I am running into trouble with making blends of multiple flavors. I will definitely veep tinkering with amounts tho. Some flavors I need to use more, and some I need much much less.

 

[michaelsil1]

Too much flavoring also mutes flavor.

 

[Skunk!]

Find I need a little acid in there, I use malic, for fruit flavors (all I vape, can't comment on tobacco flavors). Maybe it helps balance pH too, gets rid of any soapy taste. As far as the malic acid degrading the overall flavor in a short time, can't say I noticed, but I tend to mix and vape batches quickly, they never sit around for long.

I have almost exclusively been doing tobaccos or coffee and chocolate flavors. That is changing, though as my sense of taste returns. I have tried a couple of the fruit blends that my friend had recently, and I actually liked them. I started on straight RY4 and can't do that one anymore. So I may have to try out some fruit juices in the future. I can see how acid would help if you were going for sour flavors.