My little rant about banning E-Cigs.

[zoiDman]

I foresee the tax stamp being on sealed pre-filled cartos and them being the only (obviously they have the tax stamp) approved nicotine source, with all the prohibition style dealings that will entail.

...

I'm not sure if the Only way that e-liquid Nicotine will be sold in the Future will get to that point. But it could.

Where the Problem will be is all the Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants that can go into an e-liquid now and be sold in any type of Container in a Completely Unregulated Market.

I could see a Push for Tax Stamped Approved Cartos. But I could also see a Market where Many Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants are not allowed.

Hence, Nicotine Base would be Tax Stamped and Allowed for Consumption but Unapproved Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants would not be.

It would be up to the End User to DIY if He or She wanted such things in their e-liquids.

 

[MickeyRat]

I'm not sure if the Only way that e-Liquid Nicotine will be sold in the Future will get to that point. But it could.

Where the Problem will be is all the Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants that can go into an e-Liquid now and be sold in any type of Container in a Completely Unregulated Market.

I could see a Push for Tax Stamped Approved Cartos. But I could also see a Market where Many Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants are not allowed.

Hence, Nicotine Base would be Tax Stamped and Allowed for Consumption but Unapproved Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants would not be.

It would be up to the End User to DIY if He or She wanted such things in their e-Liquids.

I think that's more likely. Oddly enough, the thing I most uncomfortable about right now is the lack of child resistant packaging and the total lack of any infornation about whether any particular flavoring or ingredient is harmful or safe for that matter when inhaled. Most of us know about diacetys but, if you really dig in to DIY there are enhancers that are pretty suspect. I've seen posts from people that talk about racing heartbeats etc. The thing is those people kept using them and just cut back. That may be fine but, it gives me pause. I don't use enhancers in my DIY. I've seen a very few posts that mention that clove can have some harmful effects as well. We're really flying blind on this one.

 

[zoiDman]

I think that's more likely. Oddly enough, the thing I most uncomfortable about right now is the lack of child resistant packaging and the total lack of any infornation about whether any particular flavoring or ingredient is harmful or safe for that matter when inhaled. Most of us know about diacetys but, if you really dig in to DIY there are enhancers that are pretty suspect. I've seen posts from people that talk about racing heartbeats etc. The thing is those people kept using them and just cut back. That may be fine but, it gives me pause. I don't use enhancers in my DIY. I've seen a very few posts that mention that clove can have some harmful effects as well. We're really flying blind on this one.

These are good points.

And they might be what Ultimately changes the way People use e-Liquids much more that just Ankle Biting Indoor Bans in Non-Smoking Areas.

The REAL battle may be over Flavored e-Liquids and the Ability of an Individual to Make and then Sell an e-Liquids without a License.

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

I'm not sure if the Only way that e-Liquid Nicotine will be sold in the Future will get to that point. But it could.

Where the Problem will be is all the Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants that can go into an e-Liquid now and be sold in any type of Container in a Completely Unregulated Market.

I could see a Push for Tax Stamped Approved Cartos. But I could also see a Market where Many Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants are not allowed.

Hence, Nicotine Base would be Tax Stamped and Allowed for Consumption but Unapproved Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants would not be.

It would be up to the End User to DIY if He or She wanted such things in their e-Liquids.

Presently in Canada e-cigs with nicotine are not allowed to be advertised or imported (so much for that free-trade thing). B&M shops can sell pre-filled flavored no-nic cartos (pack of 5 for $25)! Nic juice itself is not banned yet, as long as it is not sold in or as part of an e-cig. Our vendors take great pains to keep the two very seperate.

I agree with more safety around children, keeping in mind that one cigarette has enough nicotine to harm or kill a child if they eat one. Same with a bottle of aspirin, cleaning fluids, bug sprays, DEET.

They will never be able to completely stop the DIY'er, we are just too resourceful! The focus of Health Canada (HC) and the FDA is more towards the uninformed (much like themselves) masses. We have to agree to a certain extent that it's not a good idea to have bottles of 100m nic on store shelves available to everyone. There are dangers for the uninformed.

I believe there is a Chinese curse that states, "may you live in interesting times"!

 

[imsoenthused]

I believe there is a Chinese curse that states, "may you live in interesting times"!

There's a second one that goes with it, "may you come to the attention of those in high office." It seems rather disturbingly appropriate to this discussion.

 

[PGB!]

Today's little Mini Rant-
Albeit a little off-topic (Sorry!)

Rojo Wrote: "Some people are just fanatics looking to remake the world in their own image, and God help anyone who has an opposing point of view. To these lunatics only one opinion matters, and all others are blasphemous and should be illegal." Spot On Excellent!!

That's exactly the problem- Everyone's a big shot. Some members of our legislative bodies tend toward some sort of auto-derived self-importance. Did they forget who "hired" them? Why do we follow like sheep? Can't we think on our own?

Want a good perspective on how important we really are in the grand scheme of things? Read Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot- A Vision Of The Human Future In Space or for a quick look- Go here- An Excerpt from A Pale Blue Dot - Explore the Cosmos | The Planetary Society or here, with your sound on- Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot - YouTube

Regarding taxing or banning nicotine- Good luck stopping home brew. how much are they going to spend to enforce yet another "un-enforceable"?

Thanks for reading!
Paul

 

[Daniel O'Brien]

Rojo Wrote: "Some people are just fanatics looking to remake the world in their own image, and God help anyone who has an opposing point of view. To these lunatics only one opinion matters, and all others are blasphemous and should be illegal." Spot On Excellent!!

So Perfect ! I completely agree.

 

[lawnman3]

honestly my look on the ban if it actually happens here in the us ... is the big e cig companys honestly need to get offf there (((( azz and make tv adds to promote what there selling to us and show the general public what e cigs are all about ... and if needed they should slip under the covers with whom ever the need to to make them more acceptable...)))

its really china as a whole screwing us here in the us on helping make there products legal to have sell and use freely in the the land of the ((((FREE ...CHINA GET OF YOUR azz AND MAKE IT HAPPEN ALLREADY WOULD YA...))))

 

[lawnman3]

oh and we can extract nic from tobacco here in the us ... not a problem ..if needed we can do it like the moonshine runners did it .. but with nic juice extract...

 

[expat007]

My (Crabby) Take On It?...
One great & powerful lobby group that may be helpful is the insurance industry lobby- life, health and disability. They stand to save a bucket load of money if everyone would quit smoking. Perhaps they would be an ally? ...

Not to bust your bubble or anything, but the insurance industry will stay pretty apathetic about the issue. They're a numbers game. They don't particularly care one way or the other how healthy you are or how long you live. They simply adjust the numbers to ensure their profit. If everyone in the country started smoking tomorrow, it would have exactly zero impact on their bottom line and they know it. If everyone quit smoking tomorrow, the same thing would happen. They'd simply reduce their premiums in response to their mortality experience and competitive pressures. The net impact on their bottom line would be the same zero.

Side Note- Example of how government can work: I live in a state that is surrounded by fresh water- the Great Lakes. Supposedly 1/5 the world's fresh water supply. But, our state government says it is perfectly OK to buy & use trisodium phosphate- a lake killer if there ever was one! Hmmm... What state is loaded with chemical & detergent manufacturers? Oh, yeah- Now I get it!

Unfortunately, TSP is about the last thing the GLs have to worry about. I'm sure you know how their being decimated by industrial pollution, exotic species and god-knows-whatall from the bilge discharge of all the freighters that ply them. Residential use of TSP probably has about the same deleterious impact as spitting into a cesspool. Besides, water companies will be sucking them dry for export before long anyway. You can look forward to living near the American version of the Aral Sea.

 

[CES]

if you want to make a difference...spend some time in this subforum Legislation News and check out the calls to action here CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

every story and every voice is important

 

[expat007]

honestly my look on the ban if it actually happens here in the us ... is the big e cig companys honestly need to get offf there (((( azz and make tv adds to promote what there selling to us and show the general public what e cigs are all about ... and if needed they should slip under the covers with whom ever the need to to make them more acceptable...)))

its really china as a whole screwing us here in the us on helping make there products legal to have sell and use freely in the the land of the ((((FREE ...CHINA GET OF YOUR azz AND MAKE IT HAPPEN ALLREADY WOULD YA...))))

Go easy on China. If a ban were to actually happen, we'll still be able to get hardware and high concentration nicotine from China. It'll be inconvenient and subject to customs confiscation, but there will always be companies in China that will ship it, ban or no ban. I recently calculated that a liter of 99% nicotine would last me several hundred years. Yeah, I'll have to buy a fume hood and some lab equipment, but it's not nitroglycerin. Even a half liter of 50% nic solution would easily last the rest of my life. China's disregard for U.S. law is a problem sometimes, but other times it's a definite advantage.

 

[expat007]

You know what is weird...I think a lot of anti-smokers resent the fact we are vaping because WE ARE CHEATING! We are supposed to suck it up, go cold turkey, and suffer as much as necessary in order to quit smoking. HOW DARE WE come up with an ingenious way to beat the system! We are cheating! We aren't "strong" in their minds because we just found a rational way around quitting smoking. We're cheaters!

If this is cheating, cheating rocks!

I agree 100%. Not just anti-smokers either. I've seen many posts from EX-smokers that denigrate e-cigs and vapers. They're totally jealous that they had to go through the misery of quitting cold turkey or using some suicide inducing and expensive drug, while we happily vape along. They can't stand it. They were so proud that they survived cold turkey and here we come along and make them feel like all their misery was in vain. These ex-smokers are also the ones who keep harping on about how dangerous nicotine is. They glom onto any study or opinion that asserts nicotine kills. Freedom from nicotine is the only advantage they have left over vapers and they're determined to maximize it, even if it means grossly exaggerating the danger of nicotine.

 

[expat007]

I'm not sure if the Only way that e-Liquid Nicotine will be sold in the Future will get to that point. But it could.

Where the Problem will be is all the Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants that can go into an e-Liquid now and be sold in any type of Container in a Completely Unregulated Market.

I could see a Push for Tax Stamped Approved Cartos. But I could also see a Market where Many Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants are not allowed.

Hence, Nicotine Base would be Tax Stamped and Allowed for Consumption but Unapproved Chemical Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants would not be.

It would be up to the End User to DIY if He or She wanted such things in their e-Liquids.

Back around WWII, the dairy lobby in some states had a law passed that yellow margarine couldn't be sold. Margarine was white back then. But the margarine companies got smart. They sold a little yellow pill. You'd smash that pill up in your margarine and, wallah, yellow margarine.

I would not be surprised if flavored e-juice was banned. I'd almost guarantee it will be. But it's pathetically easy to get around. One company sells a base containing some proportion of VG and/or PG and nicotine. A subsidiary company sells a matching bottle containing flavorings and however much VG/PG is required to create a certain flavor and formulation. There is no way in the world that they can ban the sale of a mixture of PG and flavorings. Mix the contents of bottle A and bottle B and problem solved.

 

[wv2win]

How many people who posted in this thread are financially supportive members of CASAA??? It is the only non-profit group who takes positive action in support of vaping. Everyone who vapes should be a financially supportive member of CASAA. And if you are a member, put the CASAA banner in your signature so more ECF members, especailly new members, might take notice and join.

 

[zoiDman]

Back around WWII, the dairy lobby in some states had a law passed that yellow margarine couldn't be sold. Margarine was white back then. But the margarine companies got smart. They sold a little yellow pill. You'd smash that pill up in your margarine and, wallah, yellow margarine.

I would not be surprised if flavored e-juice was banned. I'd almost guarantee it will be. But it's pathetically easy to get around. One company sells a base containing some proportion of VG and/or PG and nicotine. A subsidiary company sells a matching bottle containing flavorings and however much VG/PG is required to create a certain flavor and formulation. There is no way in the world that they can ban the sale of a mixture of PG and flavorings. Mix the contents of bottle A and bottle B and problem solved.

Not saying that if Retail sales of Flavored e-Liquids was Strongly Regulated that it wouldn’t be Easy for End Users to make their own Flavor e-Liquids using whatever Chemicals they choose.

And Policy Makers know this.

That is why I can foresee a push more for Taxation and Regulation of Nicotine Base.

Governments like to Tax things that Consumers will not Readily Give Up. Guarantees a Constant, Long Term Revenue Stream.

 

[expat007]

The issue I was referring to isn't so much the taxation of e-liquids. That's a given. The issue is that they'll likely ban flavored e-juice outright "for the children". RJR couldn't come out with a watermelon flavored cigarette, even if consumers wanted one. If even menthol e-juice is still allowed after they get finished with us, we'll be lucky. The only way small e-juice manufacturers will be able to survive will be to sell their flavoring components and their nicotine components separately. That's something that RJR can't do with watermelon flavored cigarettes.

I DIY, but I can't make juice that tastes as good as many of the ejuice companies. I would definitely buy a two-part e-juice if the result is as good as what is produced now. Of course, they'll be a ton of self-flavoring of juice, but the recipes are not usually as good as what you can buy from the better commercial manufacturers, IMO. At least I haven't been able to get equivalent results.

My main concern is the level of taxation for nicotine base. If the behavior of the taxing authorities with regard to RYO tobacco is any guide, they'll attempt to tax nicotine base, or e-juice, at the same level as pre-packaged cigarettes. The BT lobbyists made sure of it when they were formulating taxes for bulk tobacco and they'll certainly use the same playbook in regard to e-liquids. If they determine that a 10ml bottle of e-juice is equivalent to 5 packs of cigarettes, you can look forward to $4/ml. juice and a $1000 tax on a 250ml bottle of 100mg nicotine base. At that point, you will see a huge increase in nicotine smuggling from China. You will also see nicotine being diverted somewhere between the labs that extract it and companies that make nicotine based pesticides.

 

[seminolewind]

The anti-cigarette smoking public does NOT want to see smokers have an alternative. They hate smokers, they want to see them suffer. Don't think they are all out there worried about smoker's health.

Non-smokers are more apt to believe the negative rather than the positive. And most are not apt to believe what smokers/vapers say about vaping , or thinking vapers are trying to trick them or get away with something.

I agree with vapers quickly moving on to personal vaporizers that don't look like cigarettes, and NOT call them e-cigarettes or electronic cigarettes.

Be courteous and not blatent about vaping.

The government is apt to keep smoking legal and vaping not because of the money issue. Regardless to what they say, smoking is a big income for them, and hard to give up. Not only the tax, but the payoffs by cig. manufacturers as well.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The government is apt to keep smoking legal and vaping not because of the money issue. Regardless to what they say, smoking is a big income for them, and hard to give up. Not only the tax, but the payoffs by cig. manufacturers as well.

Why would the Government want to make Vaping Illegal?

You can't Tax something that is Illegal. And at this point, it is going to be Very Difficult to stop people from vaping.

 

[expat007]

Why would the Government want to make Vaping Illegal?

You can't Tax something that is Illegal. And at this point, it is going to be Very Difficult to stop people from vaping.

The answer to that depends on how you define "government". The clients of the FDA, i.e. Pharma, stands to lose a lot of money if people adopt vaping instead of their patches and poisons. The FDA has already demonstrated their desire to squash e-cigs. Classifiying them as drugs would be the next best thing to an outright ban. Either kill them or hand them over to their clients. That was their objective.

Local and state bureaucrats wouldn't mind if e-cigs were outlawed because they're not sure the revenue from e-cig taxes will make up for the lost revenue from cigarette taxes. When calculating the tax rates to be applied to e-cigs, they'll attempt to achieve an equivalence. The tobacco lobby will stand by to assist them in these calculations, just as they did when tax rates were calculated for bulk RYO tobacco.

The FDA would love to make them illegal. They can't do it of course, in light of recent court rulings. But the fact that they can't stop people from vaping doesn't enter into the calculus. They can't stop people from doing a lot of things that are illegal even though they could be taxed and regulated if they were legal.

Fact is, if e-cigs were made illegal, a lot of people would go back to analogs. Probably half of the current vapers would revert to analogs. More importantly, the number of new vapers would diminish greatly. The FDA, who has the real power to cripple the e-cig market, is not necessarily concerned with tax revenue. Their concern is the fiscal health of their clients in the industries they are supposedly regulating, the same industries that provide them with the bulk of their revenue.

Consider this: Prior to 1937, that plant that can't be mentioned was legal. It was made illegal because of the ambitions of certain government bureaucrats. These bureaucrats wouldn't have been able to accomplish this without the cooperation of several industries that were threatened by this plant, notably the timber, paper (W.R. Hearst) and cotton industries. No thought was given to the costs of enforcement. No thought was given to the potential of tax revenue. Private corporate interests saw it as a threat and the government responded to protect those interests. Today, the corporate interests are even stronger and more varied, including a massive multi-billion dollar testing industry, rehab industry and prison industry. Consequently government will NEVER reverse course, regardless of any potential tax revenue and regardless of the potential to save billions of dollars in enforcement, judicial and imprisonment costs.