My reasons against sub-ohming

[RayofLight62]

Right before summer of 2014, I started to see adverts for the pre-sale of the Aspire Atlantis, their sub-ohm batteries, and a string of cheap Genesis-like rebuildable atomisers. Many forum posts saying how sub-ohm was about to become mainstream in year 2015.
I am usually very keen to technological advancement and very willing to try new gear. At the same time, I am a former pipe smoker which has been "rescued" from smoking tobacco thanks to vaping.
In the following months, I have been talking to web shop dealers and B&M vape shop owners about the upcoming "novelty", and everybody seemed very excited by having new toys for a over-saturated vape market, which can count on switchers and many aficionados.
Well, this revolution of mainstream sub-ohming never come in reality. Many web and B&M dealers (at least, here in the UK) removed the Atlantis and other RBAs from the offer because it brought gigantic liabilities under two fronts: one, the battery side of the setup. A genuine IMR 18650 battery able to deliver 20+ Amps steadily and reliably is harder to find than previously tought; in the majority of cases, the setup just stop working after few uses.
The second front is the atomiser itself: there are no indication of sorts on what liquid has to be used. So customers were placing 18-24 mg/ml, 100% PG e-liquid in it, their "normal" e-liquid, ending up instantly ill. With current legislation, if a manufacturer doesn't provide correct info on a piece of equipment, the responsability falls with the seller; as the standard business insurance doesn't cover such cases of misuse, many reputable sellers just removed sub-ohming stuff from sale.
Back to my reasoning. If I want to make a gigantic cloud, I need to pump from 60 to 100 micrograms per second of e-liquid to the coil, which is from three to five times the amount flowing in a CE4 or Vivi or Nautilus. Subsequently, in order to keep the amount of nicotine intake within normality, I must use a liquid which is from three to five time weaker, around 6 mg/ml. Also the amount of aggressive PG is from three to five time more, so I must use the less "aggressive" VG -which is dehydrating tissues at lesser rate.
Therefore, those big clouds costs me in terms of e-liquid quantities, which I need to use from three to five times more $$$. And I will get the additional damage of more VG intake. One last thing: my BDC coils, properly cleaned every couple of days, lasts for a month; sub-ohm coils lifetime can be counted in hours.
All considered, the sub-ohming is a pure show-off activity, in the usual terms of "mine is bigger than yours". More technically riskier, more expensive, much less healthy. A big cloud can only be beneficial to the inner ego, not else.
Of course, this is the point of view of one... myself. I vape because I need the nic, and over the time I learned to appreciate the associated flavours. Your mileage may vary!

 

[Lord Cardigan]

I don't know of anyone at all who uses a subtank or atlantis to show off their big clouds. That's already being done with devices more suitable. Seriously, a subtank/atlantis is barely a subohm device in the colloquial sense. It's the mech mods with super low ohms pushing into the pulse ratings or the 100 watt box mods chucking the clouds, not the store bought tanks. It's drippers all the way for clouds.

Don't get why people think blowing a large cloud or using a high wattage is somehow automatically showing off. I've got drippers galore and stuff to power them and I do this in my own home or perhaps in a park. Got me a nice kayfun/orchid hybrid build for public vaping. But even if I dripped in public at a 0.1, who cares? IDGAF and nor should anyone else. Get over yourself, just because you like one style of vaping doesn't invalidate any other kind.

We see these judgmental threads nigh on a daily basis, it's tiring and provocative. Do what you want to do but don't judge others.

 

[Flt Simulation]

OP ..... While some here may disagree with you, I personally do agree with your thoughts on this.

 

[Croak]

No, it's not a show-off activity. Sorry, you're just dead wrong there mate. The show-off types laugh at sub-ohm clearos, they're too busy with mech mods or super high wattage regulated boxes, and they're all pretty much dripping.

I sub ohm in the privacy of my home. Outside this forum, I don't congregate with other vapers. I find the big clouds I produce annoying at times.

But with the advent of the Atlantis and it's ilk, I am finally, finally, getting a satisfying vape, with much better flavor without having to muck about with dripping, or rebuilding.

I lung hit my cigs, and these tanks simulate that experience closely, they finally scratch that itch in my lungs. And we all know it's the mental part of the addiction, not the physical addiction to nicotine, that is the hardest to break. I can't be the only person that smoked that way. Also, I never got a throat hit from real smoking my brands of choice, unless you count making my throat tender from chain smoking. So high VG juice was already my preference.

And no, sub-ohm coils don't die in hours. I get more life out of my Atlantis coils, by FAR, than I ever got out of either my BDC or BVC coils in a Nautilus. At least a week versus just a few days with my old coil heads. Might be my aversion to runny, foul-to-me PG-heavy juices and the fact that the bigger sub-ohm coils wick better and vape hotter to alleviate sticky VG's effects.

Sure, I go through a lot more juice and battery power, and I indeed had to step down in nic levels (but not VG levels, I never did care for PG). But it's worth it to me because it feels like I wanted it to feel for the last several years but wasn't getting. And it's still less expensive than smoking.

As for mods, with the proliferation of inexpensive 20-50w regulated or at least protected devices with sealed batteries from reputable makers such as Innokin, Eleaf/Joyetech, etc, I reckon theres a quite safe way for those risk-averse shopkeepers to deal with battery safety concerns they might be liable for. Besides the fact that IMR 20 amp 18650 batteries dead easy to obtain, especially for a shopkeeper that presumably has wholesale sources.


So yeah, sub-ohm is going to be a major factor in 2015, as it's a better, more satisfying vape for a lot of people, veterans and newcomers alike, clouds be damned. Also watch temperature control also come on in a big way, now that the Chinese have cloned the DNA40 and/or come up with their own solutions, and the major clearomizer makers have come out with pre-built nickel coils.

And I don't know how it is on your side of the pond, but the B&M shops here are selling every Atlantis or Subtank they get in stock, and mods and batteries to go with them, plus a lot more juice. They're LOVING what Aspire started.

 

[Rossum]

I've never heard of anyone who sells or uses 100pc PG liquid. Is that common in the UK?

 

[WattWick]

Let's cut some teeth off of that comb, shall we?

Crossing the 1 ohm line leads to a bunch of different territories. From using workable wire gauge on mesh wicks without overdoing the amount of wraps, to those chasing clouds in the sub-0.1 ohm range. What about the rDNA 40 folks? The temperature control folks seem to vape at 0.1-0.2 ohms. Very sub-ohm, never beyond 40 watts.

I am in no way offended. I just think it's better to use the term 'high wattage vaping' than trying to cram too much into the 'sub-ohm' category. You can vape low wattage with a sub ohm coil, and you can vape very high wattage with a high resistance coil.

... ok slightly offended... I vape at ~0.8 ohms and don't want to be seen as a cloud chasing kiddo. Oh, the vanity

 

[sofarsogood]

I'm just three months into vaping. At 6 weeks I got an atlantis and an IPV 2s to fire it and loved it for a while but drifted back to my N minis firing at 8 watts. At 25 watts the Atlantis was producing more vapor than I want most of the time. I stopped taking the Atlantis out and about because it ran the battery down too fast. I just received some 1 ohm coils from Fasttech so now it fires at 14 watts minimum, the taste is still fine, and the battery will probably last twice as long. Let the cloud chasers have their fun but I want other things.

 

[CharleyDanger]

Right before summer of 2014, I started to see adverts for the pre-sale of the Aspire Atlantis, their sub-ohm batteries, and a string of cheap Genesis-like rebuildable atomisers. Many forum posts saying how sub-ohm was about to become mainstream in year 2015.
I am usually very keen to technological advancement and very willing to try new gear. At the same time, I am a former pipe smoker which has been "rescued" from smoking tobacco thanks to vaping.
In the following months, I have been talking to web shop dealers and B&M vape shop owners about the upcoming "novelty", and everybody seemed very excited by having new toys for a over-saturated vape market, which can count on switchers and many aficionados.
Well, this revolution of mainstream sub-ohming never come in reality. Many web and B&M dealers (at least, here in the UK) removed the Atlantis and other RBAs from the offer because it brought gigantic liabilities under two fronts: one, the battery side of the setup. A genuine IMR 18650 battery able to deliver 20+ Amps steadily and reliably is harder to find than previously tought; in the majority of cases, the setup just stop working after few uses.
The second front is the atomiser itself: there are no indication of sorts on what liquid has to be used. So customers were placing 18-24 mg/ml, 100% PG e-liquid in it, their "normal" e-liquid, ending up instantly ill. With current legislation, if a manufacturer doesn't provide correct info on a piece of equipment, the responsability falls with the seller; as the standard business insurance doesn't cover such cases of misuse, many reputable sellers just removed sub-ohming stuff from sale.
Back to my reasoning. If I want to make a gigantic cloud, I need to pump from 60 to 100 micrograms per second of e-liquid to the coil, which is from three to five times the amount flowing in a CE4 or Vivi or Nautilus. Subsequently, in order to keep the amount of nicotine intake within normality, I must use a liquid which is from three to five time weaker, around 6 mg/ml. Also the amount of aggressive PG is from three to five time more, so I must use the less "aggressive" VG -which is dehydrating tissues at lesser rate.
Therefore, those big clouds costs me in terms of e-liquid quantities, which I need to use from three to five times more $$$. And I will get the additional damage of more VG intake. One last thing: my BDC coils, properly cleaned every couple of days, lasts for a month; sub-ohm coils lifetime can be counted in hours.
All considered, the sub-ohming is a pure show-off activity, in the usual terms of "mine is bigger than yours". More technically riskier, more expensive, much less healthy. A big cloud can only be beneficial to the inner ego, not else.
Of course, this is the point of view of one... myself. I vape because I need the nic, and over the time I learned to appreciate the associated flavours. Your mileage may vary!

The Atlantis and similar tanks run at 0.5 ohms. After you use them a bit they are at 0.6 ohms. This is technically sub-ohming, but it is far from cloud chasing. Being that it is a single coil you do not need a 20+ amp battery. You do not even need a 15+ amp battery. The most you are going to push with a fully charged battery is 35 watts. The clouds are a bit bigger, but more importantly the flavor is so much better. It is not RDA level, but it is as close as you are going to get in a tank. They say the Joytech Delta 2 is going to be even better. I would say that these new type of tanks are a middle ground at most. In the states I have not been a vape shop that did not carry the Atlantis.


You do have a point on the nic level and amount of juice. The first time I tried the Atlantis I had 18mg nic in it.... Wow lol. But after about 10 hits I knew I needed lower nic. So if someone fails to understand what is happening, and continues until they are ill... well... they give Darwin Awards to such people. As far as the amount of juice, I would not say the clouds cost you more juice, I would say the flavor does. But of course this is all subjective. Some like clouds and some like flavor. Either way, if you want either, you will need to burn more juice.

Also, the Atlantis coil will last you 3-4 weeks.

 

[invisiblehand13]

Well, within what, two months of the release of the Atlantis there is already a small SLEW of products for competition and more on the way...and who said that this was going to become mainstream??? There will ALWAYS be people who prefer EVERY kind of vapor so unless we all become EXACTLY the same tomorrow than EVERY type of vaping product will remain mainstream...just saying

P.S.-competition products for Atlantis:
subtank
subtank mini
subtank nano
Melo
Delta II
and more coming...SOON

 

[Asbestos4004]

My, what a pretentious little thread we have here.

 

[Flt Simulation]

I feel old fashioned in my way of vaping:

Using a Kayfun Lite-Plus atty, I make a single 1.8 ohm coil and feed it 10.5 watts of power (4.3v)

Make my own juice: 50% PG / 50% VG @ 18mg Nic
____________________________

Flavorful, not hot, and pretty good amount of vapor

 

[ReigntheGamer]

Well I for one can say with complete certainty I woke up this morning and my only thoughts were about why the OP doesn't wish to sub-ohm. And you can put me down as one of the subohm in the .5-.7 range who doesn't do it to show off but that happens to be the range on my Reo that gives me a satisfying vape.

Having said that I would not at all be surprised if the OP never posts again in this thread and just did it to get a reaction. Knowing full well there are plenty of people here that subohm and not to show off. They have a Internet term for that but it escapes me at the moment.

 

[invisiblehand13]

Well I for one can say with complete certainty I woke up this morning and my only thoughts were about why the OP doesn't wish to sub-ohm. And you can put me down as one of the subohm in the .5-.7 range who doesn't do it to show off but that happens to be the range on my Reo that gives me a satisfying vape.

Having said that I would not at all be surprised if the OP never posts again in this thread and just did it to get a reaction. Knowing full well there are plenty of people here that subohm and not to show off. They have a Internet term for that but it escapes me at the moment.

I always picture this for some reason when I see this kind of thing...

 

[jambi]

Nothing exceeds like excess. In other words, the market for turn-key, sub-ohm, cloud-chase-esque devices is obviously there, and will continue to grow and thrive.

I predict that by this time next year (probably sooner, actually), there will be a slew of Kanger/Aspire branded drippers on the market featuring cleverly designed, pre-built and completely disposable "head sections" that just screw and unscrew from a base, along with appropriate, regulated batteries to power them. What is at this moment considered "cloud chasing" that is only possible with painstakingly hand-built, super sub ohm, unregulated devices will soon become commonplace, available right out of the box to anyone with money. Another head section burns out and goes in the trash, another attractively packaged $15 replacement is screwed on, another 30 ml of eliquid gets vaporized in one sitting, and the KAspire cash registers go cha-ching! All the rich kiddies are gonna love it!

Seriously though, I don't understand what you're complaining about, OP. It'll be safe...expensive as ......, but nice and safely regulated. Really, it's the pretentious .00000000001 mech nerds that should be crying right about now. I mean, they're the true bad guys, right? They're the ones that started all this nonsense, with their insatiable desire for more more MORE clouds. It's us "moderate vapers" who take the fall every time one of them forgets to lock the fire button and turns their Stingray into a pipe bomb at rush hour on a crowded bus full of innocent children. It's like, clouds=mayhem, right? Don't worry, we're working hard to $$$ eliminate that from the equation for you $$$.

[Sarcasm, no offense]

 

[RayofLight62]

I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying that aiming to bigger clouds was a show-off. If I did, and it seems I may, please accept apologies. Having passed the thresholld of half-century, I may well have a very very personal view on some type of achievements.
This said, most of the time I am outside, walking in shops or driving in traffic, my only desire is that the vape was invisible. I read on forums that there are one million of vapers in the UK, I haven't seen one around yet. This make for the fact that, unless you are smoking a cig-a-like in public, you will gain the oddest and strangest looks one can hardly imagine. In this setting, you may understand one of the reasons I opted out of sub-ohming (or high-wattage vaping, to be more polite). Yes, I have a Genesis where I place my 0.3 - 0.4 Ohm coils and play the fog-machine. I'm sure it's the surefire way I can get hold of the fire brigade in the shortest possible time if I do that while sat on a bench in the public park. And yes, with the 0.3 Ohm and the proper juice I can make myself and the bench disappear in the smoke with few draws.
This said, have apologies if I offended. For the records, I am alone at home now, vaping 18 mg 50/50 cherry juice in a 3.5 ml Aspire BDC 2.1 Ohm Vivi Nova sitting on a black iStick at adjusted at 3.3 Volt. Very average vape. The Atlantis and the Genesis are sitting in a drawer, I may change mind one day.

 

[GinnyTx]

To each their own.

the reason I don't is I see a bunch of the "kids" that do with nosebleeds.

but if you want to blow a monster clouds that's YOUR business (whoever you are) and none of mine.

 

[invisiblehand13]

Nothing exceeds like excess. In other words, the market for turn-key, sub-ohm, cloud-chase-esque devices is obviously there, and will continue to grow and thrive.

I predict that by this time next year (probably sooner, actually), there will be a slew of Kanger/Aspire branded drippers on the market featuring cleverly designed, pre-built and completely disposable "head sections" that just screw and unscrew from a base, along with appropriate, regulated batteries to power them. What is at this moment considered "cloud chasing" that is only possible with painstakingly hand-built, super sub ohm, unregulated devices will soon become commonplace, available right out of the box to anyone with money. Another head section burns out and goes in the trash, another attractively packaged $15 replacement is screwed on, another 30 ml of eliquid gets vaporized in one sitting, and the KAspire cash registers go cha-ching! All the rich kiddies are gonna love it!

Seriously though, I don't understand what you're complaining about, OP. It'll be safe...expensive as ......, but nice and safely regulated. Really, it's the .00000000001 mech nerds that should be crying right about now. I mean, they're the true bad guys, right? They're the ones that started all this nonsense, with their insatiable desire for more more MORE clouds. It's us "moderate vapers" who take the fall every time one of them forgets to lock the fire button and turns their Stingray into a pipe bomb at rush hour on a crowded bus full of innocent children. It's like, clouds=mayhem, right? Don't worry, we're working hard to $$$ eliminate that from the equation for you $$$.

[Sarcasm, no offense]

Yeah..."painstakingly hard to make coils" lol, coils are as complicated as you wish to make them, I taught an old man in less than 20 minutes to do it himself and now he shows off to ME showing me what new builds and low resistance he is running (yes I informed him of the dangers and made sure he had VTC batts), so when people tell me things like the op said I just think of that old man and laugh...HE is the show off, NOT I...

 

[invisiblehand13]

I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying that aiming to bigger clouds was a show-off. If I did, and it seems I may, please accept apologies. Having passed the thresholld of half-century, I may well have a very very personal view on some type of achievements.
This said, most of the time I am outside, walking in shops or driving in traffic, my only desire is that the vape was invisible. I read on forums that there are one million of vapers in the UK, I haven't seen one around yet. This make for the fact that, unless you are smoking a cig-a-like in public, you will gain the oddest and strangest looks one can hardly imagine. In this setting, you may understand one of the reasons I opted out of sub-ohming (or high-wattage vaping, to be more polite). Yes, I have a Genesis where I place my 0.3 - 0.4 Ohm coils and play the fog-machine. I'm sure it's the surefire way I can get hold of the fire brigade in the shortest possible time if I do that while sat on a bench in the public park. And yes, with the 0.3 Ohm and the proper juice I can make myself and the bench disappear in the smoke with few draws.
This said, have apologies if I offended. For the records, I am alone at home now, vaping 18 mg 50/50 cherry juice in a 3.5 ml Aspire BDC 2.1 Ohm Vivi Nova sitting on a black iStick at adjusted at 3.3 Volt. Very average vape. The Atlantis and the Genesis are sitting in a drawer, I may change mind one day.

You DID say that VG is "more dangerous" than PG but last time I checked, vapor of any kind absorbs whatever moisture is around...which in my heads translates to any vapor will dehydrate you and IMO I like VG more than PG, I am look for smooth flavorful hits, not back of the throat kicking sessions...just saying

 

[RayofLight62]

I wrote VG is less aggressive than PG, which is true... both substances are actively dehydrating live tissue, VG much less than PG.
VG has its medicinal use for this very property, it is used in suppositories against constipation, it irritates the body part by dehydrating it, and the part, so upset, starts moving and this provide relief.
Same effect is produced in the throat, and the effect is more intense with PG.

 

[jambi]

Yeah..."painstakingly hard to make coils" lol, coils are as complicated as you wish to make them, I taught an old man in less than 20 minutes to do it himself and now he shows off to ME showing me what new builds and low resistance he is running (yes I informed him of the dangers and made sure he had VTC batts), so when people tell me things like the op said I just think of that old man and laugh...HE is the show off, NOT I...

Heh, I think in around two years we're gonna be the old men, telling a whole new generation of McDonald's drive-thru vapers "Yeah, I remember when we used to spend hours hunched over our desks wrapping spools of Kanthal around around a drill bit, stuffing it with just the right amount of pure as the driven snow Japanese cotton, and assembling it all into our rebuildables with little miniature screwdrivers."

They'll be like..."Really? No way, man!" as they blow massive clouds in our face from their latest ultra user friendly, factory sealed, "no user serviceable parts inside", completely disposable cloud-tech monsters.