Natural MAOI ?

[tomoiaga]

Ok, I have been reading a lot lately and want to confirm something since there are a lot of articles like this one: Green Tea Science: Can It Help You To Quit Smoking?

My guess is that a few people managed to "survive" without an analog while drinking green tea because green tea delivers some MAOI.

To cu to the chase. Has anyone tried vaping (nicotine) + green tea (to get some MAOI) ?

Figured, since vaping means a lot of water why not drink green tea instead and get some MAOI with it.
I would be glad to get other ideas for MAOI (except snus or snuf). Reading a lot of articles made me believe that nicotine in fact does not cause all this chemical addiction (ther's also the hand to mouth, smoke a.s.o) but only helps at it. Second question regarding nicotine, that seems intresting is that if this is true, although it has been discussed a lot.

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

There are no MAOIs in Green Tea. It has antioxidents, and that's all. It isn't going to help at all with quitting smoking. It can cause problems for some people who are taking certain drugs for depression.

From the web: Green tea may cause a severe increase in blood pressure (called a "hypertensive crisis") when taken together with MAOIs used to treat depression. Examples of MAOIs include phenelzine and tranylcypromine.

If you need MAOIs, use snus or snuff (nasal). I used snus for about 2 months and it really helped me over the hump.

 

[tomoiaga]

thank you.
It's pretty unknown to me what other chemicals do in an analog and it seems people experience all sort of things even after months of not having an analog,

 

[TropicalBob]

Follow closely the "are we getting it" thread. All relevant information on this is in that important thread.

There is no "quick fix" like green tea.

 

[tomoiaga]

thank you TropicalBob, I have followed a lot of pages on that thread and the summary that the last post contained which lead me to some conclusions, I will keep reading.
Right now after a month I do not suffer for lack of MOAIs except once or twice a week but I got a little bored with everything which is not really ok in my job

 

[tattooer601]

are we getting it.........link please???.....

 

[TropicalBob]

Good deal. Madame Psychosis did a great job of summarizing what had been discussed for many months over some 192 pages. If you read that summary, you are up to speed!

 

[TropicalBob]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html

 

[Madame Psychosis]

To cu to the chase. Has anyone tried vaping (nicotine) + green tea (to get some MAOI) ?

Green tea has very little MAOI action. Otherwise I might be in the ER right now.

I am on a pharmaceutical MAOI (under doctor's prescription of course), take a green tea extract supplement (to control my caffeine intake to a precise milligram level, so as not to cause hypertension), and vaping was not enough.
Though, I wasn't able to even consider quitting smoking until I began the MAOI (because smoking was the only antidepressant that was working).
I still feel smoking, snus and snuff have an additional action that I do not feel otherwise.

Points:
(1) "MAOI" is a functional term encompassing a lot of different chemicals, and there are a number of compounds that can have this broad type of activity. They can vary dramatically in:

MAO-A vs. MAO-B vs. non-selective action
Degree of inhibition
Reversible vs. irreversible inhibition
Half-life in the body and brain
Mode of delivery, influencing inhibition of peripheral vs. cerebral MAO

In other words...MAO inhibitors are not all created equal, and they're not easily substituted.
(The pharmaceutical MAOIs are the strongest, irreversible, and non-selective. Hence why I figure I cover the MAOI action with my prescription. But, lots of unknowns out there...)

(2) There are almost certainly other factors besides the MAOIs in tobacco smoke that are influencing tobacco dependence.
I tried to point this out in my summary (i.e. that it's the whole tobacco alkaloids, but one component that is probably doing a lot are the beta-carboline MAOIs).
But I should make it clearer to avoid the idea that "MAOIs are everything". I think it could mislead many people.

(3) Because of (1) and (2), just adding back a chemical with MAO inhibiting action is an uncertain approach. If done without caution, it may be harmful. (Many herbal supplements can have bad interactions with prescription drugs, for instance, so it's worth checking with your doctor if you're on anything else. They'll also have other botanical compounds in them with other effects. Pure MAOI action is pretty much impossible to come by, even in pharmaceuticals.)

(4) However...my anecdotal experience above is my brain only. While I'm trying to point out the uncertainties, it's possible that others could be successful with an approach that involves adding in supplement(s). See this discussion with exogenesis - it may give you ideas.

I would be glad to get other ideas for MAOI (except snus or snuf).

If you're looking for the whole tobacco alkaloids, those are your options -- and I do suggest you give them at least a try. Dissolvables like Stonewalls could help too, though their concentration of alkaloids is probably lower.

Reading a lot of articles made me believe that nicotine in fact does not cause all this chemical addiction (ther's also the hand to mouth, smoke a.s.o) but only helps at it. Second question regarding nicotine, that seems intresting is that if this is true, although it has been discussed a lot.

I think the answer to "Is nicotine addictive by itself?" is the same as the answer to that old joke about boxers vs. briefs:
Depends.

 

[tomoiaga]

Thank you, that explains a lot of things. While everything seems more or less ok with me, I still get cravings rarely. I got confused by so many stories involving analogs dependence that lasted months and years for some.
Something is also bugging me now, I read this in other articles but could not figure it out yet. Does an irreversible MAOI overall means that you will need it like forever ? (sorry if this sounds dumb, but it's best to ask)

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Thank you, that explains a lot of things. While everything seems more or less ok with me, I still get cravings rarely. I got confused by so many stories involving analogs dependence that lasted months and years for some.
Something is also bugging me now, I read this in other articles but could not figure it out yet. Does an irreversible MAOI overall means that you will need it like forever ? (sorry if this sounds dumb, but it's best to ask)

Not a dumb question at all!

Irreversible MAOIs form a covalent bond to the MAO enzyme, deactivating the enzyme permanently (the bond cannot be reversed) throughout the body. But, your body keeps synthesizing MAO on a continual basis.
So, if you take an irreversible MAOI, and stop it, you'll regain your normal levels of MAO within about two weeks. Nothing lifelong about it. "Irreversible" really just means "irreversible for that batch of MAO, until you make more".
Because they kill off the enzyme like that, irreversible inhibitors are also known as suicide inhibitors (great name for an antidepressant, huh?).
They are the most common kind of pharmaceutical MAOIs, and the only kind available in the United States (among the prescription ones).

The majority of botanical MAOIs are reversible (non-covalent bonds to MAO), though, and have a much shorter duration of action in the body.
There are other crucial differences -- such as, unlike most irreversible MAOIs, reversible MAOIs do not require food restrictions (a tyramine-free diet). Trying to keep this brief so I will skip that stuff.

 

[Lyndagayle]

Here's something to consider when looking for a natural anti depressant, Sam-e. I started taking 800 mg. of this supplement about 2 months ago to ease withdrawal from pain meds and it helped tremendously. Sam e is found in every cell of our body but it decreases as we age and cannot be replaced with diet. A prescription is needed in Europe but it's sold OTC here in the states. It has helped me with chronic pain to the point that I no longer feel the need to take narcotic pain killers as well as help me not go bonkers when I stopped taking them cold turkey. Here's a link with some interesting information.

SAM-e supplement benefits for depression and side effects by Ray Sahelian, M.D., mood, liver, and arthritis, dosage 100mg, 200mg

Perhaps this might help with "what's missing?" As I said earlier, I've taken it everyday for over two months and the transition from smoking to vaping was a breeze for me. I haven't missed it at all. I have my husband taking it too and his transition to vaping was very easy and he smoked close to 3 packs a day. Maybe Sam e is what helped us to not feel deprived? I dunno.

 

[tomoiaga]

I am still amazed on how much information you guys know.

Madame, thank you so much. I understand now what irreversible means. Seems like I am missing a lot of knowledge that I like. I will keep reading about MAO and suicide inhibitors ( ) because it seems very interesting.

Lyndagayle, thank you also. I guess I will pay a visit to my doctor (he doesn't even know I quit analogs some time ago).

Amazing community, thanks!

 

[suddenly]

I take an Maoi and it has never helped me to quit smoking!!

St Johns' Wort is also a Maoi.

It has not been proven yet that reversible MAOIs are effective in the treatment of depression.

 

[tomoiaga]

From what I understand now there are some MAOIs that work for x% of people, others work for y% a.s.o. Seems that also there are people that do not need MAOIs, although I actually think they would like some but like me feel the need (a very strong one) for an analog very rarely (in my case 1-2/week). I am hopping now that this will go away eventually as my body keep synthesizing MAO.
Still intrigued by why some people do feel bad for 2-3 years, seems a long time.

 

[GoodDog]

Here's something to consider when looking for a natural anti depressant, Sam-e. I started taking 800 mg. of this supplement about 2 months ago to ease withdrawal from pain meds and it helped tremendously. Sam e is found in every cell of our body but it decreases as we age and cannot be replaced with diet. A prescription is needed in Europe but it's sold OTC here in the states. It has helped me with chronic pain to the point that I no longer feel the need to take narcotic pain killers as well as help me not go bonkers when I stopped taking them cold turkey. Here's a link with some interesting information.

SAM-e supplement benefits for depression and side effects by Ray Sahelian, M.D., mood, liver, and arthritis, dosage 100mg, 200mg

Perhaps this might help with "what's missing?" As I said earlier, I've taken it everyday for over two months and the transition from smoking to vaping was a breeze for me. I haven't missed it at all. I have my husband taking it too and his transition to vaping was very easy and he smoked close to 3 packs a day. Maybe Sam e is what helped us to not feel deprived? I dunno.

I sure don't like seeing posts like this pushing supplements! We don't need more controversy and over-the-counter supplements, especially genetically-engineered like SAM-e, can be dangerous. I don't want to start a whole debate here but beware.

I know firsthand what it can do to you and you don't want to live the rest of your life with the consequences of GE gone wrong!

 

[suddenly]

I totally agree with you. Herbal suppliments can be very dangerous, and so can some vitamins. I could tell you how to get really high on Vits, but I won't.

I would also stay far far way form SAM-E!!!!!! I have found one of my clients sitting in a closet crying after taking this, and very suicidal. Enough so that they had to be committed.

All or most of our medications come from plants. If you were on one med and added some herbal product you could be in serious trouble. Also because herbal suppliments are not regulated you could get yourself into real mental or physical trouble.

Don't try these over the counter or on your own, be sure to get advice from a Dr. or a specialist in herbal medicine first. Then I would still be watchful for any side effects.

The Maoi in analogs is what is the addictive factor. It is what gives you that high or relaxed feeling.

 

[tomoiaga]

yeap. I have in mind to acquire some very low nic and test the theory about nic not being that addictive actually without the help of MAOIs.

Sorry is this is going in a wrong way regarding supplements. I figured since naturally obtained MAOIs are in very,very small quantities they can aid just a little. Supplements must be stronger and like any other supplement can have side effects.
Of course, reading about green tea in depth, reminds me the articles about PG and VG

 

[suddenly]

Don't try natual MAOIs! Not even in the popular product St Johns Wort.
In liquid form this is an extremely powerful MAO inhibiter. Don't kid yourself that there are just small quantities in these herbal products. Some are very potent.

MAO is a feel good chemical that our body natuarlly produces. MAOI inhibits the MAO from circulating out of the brain cells, actually keeping them trapped to build up an over abundance of this feel good chemical to help with depression. Too many and you could have a stroke or worse.

MAOIs' are one of the most dangerous antidepressants on the market if they are not used properly, There are just too many food and drug interactions. This is why very few doctors prescribe them. (Really they don't want the law suits from accidental death)

 

[BradSmith]

Dark chocolate is supposed to be a mild MAOI. I really don't know but it might have more to do with the caffeine and theobromine.

So if you don't mind eating a bunch of dark chocolate it might help. It's considered safe to eat dark chocalate even if you are on a MAOI however in large quantities it might be a problem.

So if your having a bad craving you might want to just vape like crazy and pig out on dark chocalate.

I don't really know that much about it but it seems likely that the caffeine and theobromine simply make the nic hit you stronger.