neck ache and headache from vg-only eliquid

[sincerelysasquatch]

Heya, I've been vaping a few months now but really increased my vaping today. I was vaping 1 ml/day of vg only eliquid but I was coughing a lot when I took hits. I tried a higher quality, organic, vg-only eliquid today that doesn't make me cough, and upgraded my regular ego to a variable voltage ego c twist. I am LOVING it and am vaping chocolate-mint on 4.2v. I have vaped 2-3 ml today and couple hours into my vaping I noticed a mild headache and a rather sore neck. I laid off the ecigarette for an hour or two and lo and behold, I started again and after a few minutes both symptoms came back. So I decided to do some reading. I read it could be 3 things... allergy (not sure I believe this one since muscle aches don't seem like a histamine reaction), lactic acid buildup (don't think it is this one either as this one typically builds up over weeks or months) and dehydration. I read potassium and water help, but does potassium only help if its a lactic acid buildup? I'll admit, I am probably pretty dehydrated on a regular basis, I am sipping water now but before now all I had to drink today was 3 cups of coffee. So I am leaning towards dehydration, so I'll test this and drink a lot more fluids then vape some more.

I am wanting to know who else has had similar experiences, and do you know if it could be an allergy? If so, does anyone know the mechanism of action? I just have never heard of histamine causing muscle aches. Also from my reading, I read that it's the pg that dehydrates you, if so how can my vg only eliquid be dehydrating me?

 

[Sthur]

Dehydration is a possibility, but if your doing 12 or 18 mg nic it might be a nic caused headache. I dropped my nic because I vape more and was getting headaches from vaping a lot. Vg will dehydrate, so drink lots of beer I mean water.

 

[Dissonance]

I'm gonna agree with Sthur on this, it very well could be from the nicotine. If you're taking in 2-3x more than you're used to, then your body isn't going to like it.

Dehydration is also a very possible cause for these symptoms as well. Vaping dehydrates you, so it would stand to reason that more vaping dehydrates you more. If you're vaping more but not drinking more... Well.. That could be it as well

 

[sincerelysasquatch]

Upon further experimenting, I don't think it's dehydration. The neck ache and headache seem directly connected to vaping, they come on as I'm vaping and go away within about 20 minutes after i stop, whether I drink or not. I think it's the nicotene or a reaction to a flavor or something? I did go down from 18mg nicotene to 12 today because of lightheadedness (my main sign of too much nicotene, if the neck thing is from it it's new to me) but I have been vaping on 4.2 volts compared to whatever my old ego battery was.

It's not a low quality juice, it's kind juice KINDJUICE| High quality – All Organic E-Nectars for Personal Vaporizers kind of a natural, organic, luxury juice so it's not a reaction to low quality ingredients.
Guess I will vape on a lower voltage and vape a little less until I can get some lower nicotene eliquid, we'll see how that helps.

 

[Dissonance]

Higher voltage = more juice burned = more nicotine delivered, so it's very possible...

For comparison, just think about drippers. Most people have to majorly lower their nicotine when they use 'em, since they generally run the drippers at a higher wattage (either through variable devices or building lower Ω coils on a mech) and burn more juice. Ontop of the throat hit, the nicotine buzz hits like a freight train. Keep going when you got a buzz (if it's still there or not) and you're gonna get a headache. I ran into this problem a lot when I used to smoke hookah... Switched from a washed tobacco (lower nicotine content) to a higher quality un-washed tobacco (tasted better, but much more nicotine) and suddenly I was getting headaches an hour in when I used to be able to smoke for 4+ hours without a problem. You can either keep going and let your body build up a tolerance, or just lower your nic

 

[AndriaD]

Upon further experimenting, I don't think it's dehydration. The neck ache and headache seem directly connected to vaping, they come on as I'm vaping and go away within about 20 minutes after i stop, whether I drink or not. I think it's the nicotene or a reaction to a flavor or something? I did go down from 18mg nicotene to 12 today because of lightheadedness (my main sign of too much nicotene, if the neck thing is from it it's new to me) but I have been vaping on 4.2 volts compared to whatever my old ego battery was.

It's not a low quality juice, it's kind juice KINDJUICE| High quality – All Organic E-Nectars for Personal Vaporizers kind of a natural, organic, luxury juice so it's not a reaction to low quality ingredients.
Guess I will vape on a lower voltage and vape a little less until I can get some lower nicotene eliquid, we'll see how that helps.

Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor; it makes blood vessels constrict, particularly the smallest capillaries, of which there are a great many in the head. Could be you're very sensitive to that type of change in the cardiovascular system in your head. I've usually found that I get a headache more from withdrawal than from a slight overdose -- for that I just get stomach pains and nausea. But I realize that it might affect others in just the opposite way.

I was also considering that it might simply be muscle fatigue, if you're vaping 2 to 3 times as much as you usually do; using the muscles of the face and mouth pulls on muscles in the head and neck. It doesn't seem like much "exercise" but when I was first learning to touch-type and use my pinkies on their appropriate keys, my wrists were constantly tired, almost aching from the unaccustomed use of so many muscles that I didn't even know I had!

Could even be a combo of muscle fatigue and a slight nicotine overdose.

Andria

 

[sincerelysasquatch]

Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor; it makes blood vessels constrict, particularly the smallest capillaries, of which there are a great many in the head. Could be you're very sensitive to that type of change in the cardiovascular system in your head. I've usually found that I get a headache more from withdrawal than from a slight overdose -- for that I just get stomach pains and nausea. But I realize that it might affect others in just the opposite way.

I was also considering that it might simply be muscle fatigue, if you're vaping 2 to 3 times as much as you usually do; using the muscles of the face and mouth pulls on muscles in the head and neck. It doesn't seem like much "exercise" but when I was first learning to touch-type and use my pinkies on their appropriate keys, my wrists were constantly tired, almost aching from the unaccustomed use of so many muscles that I didn't even know I had!

Could even be a combo of muscle fatigue and a slight nicotine overdose.

Andria

First of all, thanks for the replies guys!
I don't think it is muscle fatigue. When I made my last post about the higher voltage making more vapor/releasing more nicotene, I realized it must burn through the juice quicker since although I am vaping a bit more, I don't think it's THAT much of an increase, not enough to be causing noticeable muscle strain. And the fact that it comes on so consistently with the vaping, I'm convinced it's something in the vapor. I used to with the higher voltageget a similar reaction to wine when I was first drinking it, the same muscle ache, so maybe it could be the type of alcohol used in the liquid? I don't know. I hope it's the nicotene because I frickin' LOVE this juice and I like vaping it at a higher voltage so I'm hoping the problem will be fixed when I can pick up some lower nicotene juice (not until Friday when my fiancee gets his paycheck -I'm female, I know a lot of people mistake me for a guy online heh). Until them I'm vaping less
and at a lower voltage and it's helping.

I really hope this juice works out, if I can enjoy this juice the way i want at a lower nic level at the higher voltage without the side effects I'll be off analogs I' for good. I'm pretty sure the headache is from too much nicotene, I've had that from smoking before but the neck ache I'm not sure.

 

[sincerelysasquatch]

I would add this in a post edit but I'm on my phone and it won't let me edit it. Also just realized that if I am sensitive to something in the juice I'm sure I'm also getting a higher concentration of whatever it is on the higher voltage, too. Maybe I could try leaving the container open for a few days to evaporate the alcohol if that's what I'm reacting to, considering I've had the achey reaction to types of alcohol before.

Also sorry about the typoes, my phone likes to jump my cursor all over sometimes when I'm typing and sometimes gives me a hard time about getting back to my spot. Dumb phone...

 

[FinchX]

I only browse ECF on my phone using Tapatalk Pro... great app for forums. I'm very rarely at the PC while browsing and posting to ECF.

I'm in a similar boat with a liquid. I've actually discussed it before with AndriaD when she opened her thread regarding severe dehydration (which some rude ECF members unfortunately pushed her away from with very inconsiderate posts to the thread).

I recently purchased my first pure VG liquid and it's caused both dehydration and severe drymouth for me. PG, which many claim is worse about dehydrating, never bothered me like this. So I'm under the impression it's one of the chemicals added for flavoring that is the culprit.

I agree with many of the above posts that your head and neck pain is the result of a higher nicotine intake. You're getting more per hit, and you're going through more liquid as well.

When I first bought my first vv mod, I sprung for a Provari... I got my cartos, tanks, everything all in one large order from Provape. I also ordered some new liquids from ECBlend to try out in my new carto tanks.

It wasn't my first dealing with carto tanks. I was using the Inferno kit from Volcano at the time, which still relied on carto tanks, and I was using Volcano liquids only at 24mg nicotine level. So of course, when making my first purchase of liquids from ECBlend, I went with 24mg as well.

The day I got my Provari, I instantly threw the batteries in to charge and started filling my carto tanks with my new liquids. I'm a chain vapor, and that night I went over to a friend's to show off my mod and let everyone try it out. We were all outside having drinks, and I was chain vaping as I always did on my Inferno, and the booze mixed with the much higher nicotine intake made me sick. I had to run off the porch and throw up in the back yard I got so ill.

Being as stubborn as I am, I simply kept vaping 24mg until my body adjusted to it, and I still vape that nicotine level to this day. But YES upon first making the change to my vv mod, I did experience illness.

I've read on numerous threads that when switching to a rebuildable like a Kayfun or Russian that it's almost imperative to go down on your nicotine level. I'll just have to see when I eventually get one..lol

 

[Bunnykiller]

hmmm how much does vaping dehydrate a person?? is it like for every ml of juice vaped you loose a liter of water just how much water is lost??? and what method does the water leave you? makes one visit the bathroom more often? and how effective is PG as an absorbant of water?? what volume can be absorbed by PG per volume?

I got lots of questions no one can seem to answer properly

 

[AndriaD]

hmmm how much does vaping dehydrate a person?? is it like for every ml of juice vaped you loose a liter of water just how much water is lost??? and what method does the water leave you? makes one visit the bathroom more often? and how effective is PG as an absorbant of water?? what volume can be absorbed by PG per volume?

I got lots of questions no one can seem to answer properly

Everytime you exhale vapor, although there are *traces* of the stuff in the ejuice in the vapor (*very minute* traces!) it's almost entirely water vapor, and that water vapor has to come from somewhere -- the water in the vaper's body. So I think that PG and VG are actually pretty close in how much they dehydrate, though PG might be slightly more dehydrating -- but then, every body is different, so for some, VG might actually be more dehydrating, just depending on a person's specific body chemistry (also considering that VG creates more clouds -- it may be pulling *more* water from the body). So, the more often you vape, the more it's going to pull water from your body, and cause dehydration, because obviously this exhaling-water-vapor thing, on this scale, isn't something that most, or any, of us have ever prepared for. For me, I've decided that it makes more sense to vape less frequently, at a higher nicotine level, so that I'm not exhaling so much water vapor so often.

No need to look for exotic points of exit -- it's right there in front of you in the vapor you exhale -- that water came from your body. If you don't replace it ASAP, you'll become dehydrated, with all the attendant problems, which I won't go into, because as Finch mentioned, some rude person will no doubt throw a hissy fit and call me stupid, crazy, ignorant, and/or just insist that I have no idea what I'm talking about -- even though I've spent the last 3 months dealing with that exact very-frustrating problem, and finally solved it -- for *this* body.

Andria

 

[Bunnykiller]

I did a test with a dripper mod made for cloud chasing...
I took a rather deep hit off it inhaled and then exhaled... produced a hefty cloud
Next, I took another hefty draw and didnt inhale into the lungs and exhaled it and produced a cloud of equal density and size
and then. I inhaled just air and exhaled it thru the air holes on the dripper and the resulting cloud that exited fron the drip tip was just as dense and thick as the other 2 previous clouds.

Since all 3 clouds were very similar in density and size, why didnt I see a difference if there was more water vapor from the lung inhale test.

I suppose a real test would be to take a weight measure of a person in the morning, weigh all items consumed ( food liquids) and weigh any waste products ( bathroom visits) and see how much weight is lost through respired water loss due to vaping. Repeate the process the next day with the same person but not have them vape and compare the weight differences between both days. If there is an 8 pound difference ( approximately 1 gallon of water) then an average person would be seeing a mild case of dehydration ( since dehydration is based off of body weight and percentages lost).
But until that test is completed and verified, I really have a difficult time with the theory that 3- 5 ml of PG/VG will extract more than 350-500 times its weight/volume of water from a person.

 

[Bunnykiller]

just had another thought... the fog machines used in theatrical venues... they create massive amounts of vapor... where does the water come from? They use PG as the fluid to make the fog

 

[AndriaD]

The water doesn't have to come from the lungs; the mouth, throat, and sinuses are also very moist, and can give up water quite readily.

The *real* test is... how does it affect you? If you're dehydrated, it doesn't really matter from what part of your body the water is coming, you're still losing it, and need to replace it. Some people don't seem to have a lot of trouble with dehydration, maybe because they already drink a lot of water and/or other "good" (non-alcoholic, non-caffeinated) beverages or foods with lots of water. I started vaping with an existing dehydration problem, so it affected me very severely; also I was pretty much chain-vaping, so a lot of water vapor was being exhaled, very frequently.

Andria

 

[sincerelysasquatch]

Andria, can you cite a study where the majority of exhaled vapor is water? I read on the contents of vapor and I don't remember that being the case.At any rate, I decided that in order to see if these effects are nicotene or a sensitivity to another ingredient I am going to buy the e-juice in 0mg nicotene and vape see what happens with that. Then if the problem goes away, I'll buy another bottle of the same liquid in 18 or 12 mg and mix it with the 0 mg to create a lower nicotene content liquid.Edit: according to this study: V2 Electronic Cigarettes Blog The American Association of Public Health Physicians Recommends E-Cigarettes for Tobacco Harm Reduction » V2 Electronic Cigarettes Blog primary thing contained in secondhand vapor was pg, not water, so I am guessing they used a mainly pg liquid. I think vapor, and secondhand vapor, contains mainly the pg and/or vg. Not trying to be petty, I don't doubt that ecigarettes can dehydrate, I just don't believe it is through dehydrating your mouth/nose/throat/lungs.

 

[AndriaD]

Andria, can you cite a study where the majority of exhaled vapor is water? I read on the contents of vapor and I don't remember that being the case.At any rate, I decided that in order to see if these effects are nicotene or a sensitivity to another ingredient I am going to buy the e-juice in 0mg nicotene and vape see what happens with that. Then if the problem goes away, I'll buy another bottle of the same liquid in 18 or 12 mg and mix it with the 0 mg to create a lower nicotene content liquid.Edit: according to this study: V2 Electronic Cigarettes Blog The American Association of Public Health Physicians Recommends E-Cigarettes for Tobacco Harm Reduction » V2 Electronic Cigarettes Blog primary thing contained in secondhand vapor was pg, not water, so I am guessing they used a mainly pg liquid. I think vapor, and secondhand vapor, contains mainly the pg and/or vg. Not trying to be petty, I don't doubt that ecigarettes can dehydrate, I just don't believe it is through dehydrating your mouth/nose/throat/lungs.

No, I can't cite a study, I'm not a reference book with footnotes. However I refer you to this post, by KentC, who's been around here since 2009 and seems to know a whale of a lot about this subject. If you have questions about it, ask him, he may actually have an answer -- he might even be able to cite a study.

The subject under discussion was how hazardous is it for my cat to be in the house when I'm vaping; apparently there is VERY little PG in exhaled vapor, which means there's probably little VG either, and studies have been done which show that only *minute traces* of nicotine are found in exhaled vapor. Which means...? That vapor must be made of SOMETHING -- water vapor! Since there's little if any water in ejuice... where does that water come from??? 3 guesses, and the first 2 don't count.

Andria

 

[danny4x4]

First off, this is just pure conjecture on my part.

I believe the pg or VG gets into the bloodstream and "robs" the water from the blood. Much like what alcohol does. Can/Does pg or VG get into the bloodstream? I don't know. I'm just throwing out what I think.

Hence, the water that we lose to the pg/VG from the mouth does not cause the neck ache and headaches. It's the pg/VG that gets into the bloodstream that causes it.

Maybe I'm way off base with my conjecture. If so, please feel free to educate me.

 

[Madtypist]

I used to love mint and choco-mint flavours but found I was getting strange headaches from that particular flavour, so stopped using it..